Kindred: The Embraced [TV Show]

Jala 00:32

We are talking today about the 1990s wild Kindred: The Embraced TV show. So this was one that was based on Vampire the Masquerade and we will get more into that in a minute. But first, I want to toss it around and say hi to everybody and see how everybody's doing. So Tim, this is your first time on the show, this show.

Tim 00:56

yes

Jala 00:56

You have been on Monster Dear Monster, even though Cameron never knew that.

Tim 01:00

Yes.

Cameron 01:01

Yeah,

Jala 01:02

You were on...

Cameron 01:02

secret episodes.

Jala 01:03

Yeah, secret episodes where, you know, Cameron was not featured, but you were on, Tim. And we talked about various things. I don't remember which all ones we were on. We did Kindred. I know we did Kindred.

Tim 01:13

Yeah, we did. We did do that.

Jala 01:16

But there was, weren't you on some other ones too?

Tim 01:18

I think that was the only one. I think that was the only one.

Jala 01:19

Really?

Tim 01:20

Yes.

Jala 01:20

Oh, well that's, wow.

Tim 01:21

It was four years ago, which is like still mind boggling to think about.

Cameron 01:23

Yeah, time flies.

Tim 01:25

but yeah, that was the one, and it was a blast.

Jala 01:29

Yeah.

Tim 01:29

And I'm refreshed on the show and ready to talk about it again, for sure.

Jala 01:32

Right. I know. I was just like, I know we talked about this on Monster Dear Monster, but it's been a minute and I really just want to talk about it again because it's so silly.

Tim 01:38

and There's plenty to talk about still, yes.

Jala 01:40

So yes, you are Tim and you don't do things on the internet other than when I drag you on to a podcast.

Tim 01:48

Exactly, yes. I just hang out and lurk and enjoy things from my own little...

Jala 01:55

such as all the cute animals I send you on Instagram.

Cameron 01:55

Mm-hmm.

Tim 01:56

Yes, yes and I appreciate them so much.

Jala 01:57

So yes.

Cameron 01:58

Excellent.

Jala 02:00

and Right. Right. So I say that because I always try to let everybody know at the top of the episode where they can find you if they like you. You are one of the internet cryptids. So, you know, that is that is what it is.

Cameron 02:09

Mm.

Tim 02:11

boom

Jala 02:12

So, Cameron, it's been a minute since you've been on to the death positivity episode.

Cameron 02:12

Yes. It's been a little while.

Jala 02:17

Was that one or two episodes or one or two years ago? I don't even remember.

Cameron 02:20

I think I'm going to err on the side of two years.

Jala 02:25

It's been a minute for you too.

Cameron 02:25

Time is, yeah, time is a weird soup.

Jala 02:29

Yeah. Yeah. So listeners will know you from Monster Dear Monster, which is the sister show of this show on Fireheart Media podcast network. So yeah.

Cameron 02:37

Yes.

Jala 02:39

And if you haven't listened to the death positivity episode, you really need to because Cameron was on fire ah and

Cameron 02:45

Yeah. Look, it's my area of specialty is death and dying things, despite working in child education.

Jala 02:54

Right. Well, and the thing is, is that like that episode, it as much as like the title scares people, because it's this definite, like it was a funny episode, y'all. It was funny.

Cameron 03:03

Oh, it was great. It was a really good time.

Jala 03:06

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So how is stuff where you are at, Cameron?

Cameron 03:13

It's pretty good. For those who don't listen to MDM, I'm in Australia, so it's warm. But I'm also a schoolteacher, so this is our summer break, so I've had a couple weeks off.

Jala 03:20

Mm hmm.

Cameron 03:24

I've got a couple more weeks off, which is quite nice. It's pretty good over here. I am in a vampire mood, I think, because we watched all of Kindred: The Embraced a few weeks ago.

Jala 03:36

Mm hmm.

Cameron 03:37

And I've also just a couple days ago watched Robert Eggers Nosferatu, which, ah slight aside, go watch that.

Jala 03:41

Oh, yes.

Cameron 03:43

It's a really, really good horror vampire film.

Jala 03:45

Right. That segues into one of the bonus shows that we have releasing that's actually for December was Dave and I reviewing Nosferatu and that one.

Cameron 03:52

Oh, perfect.

Tim 03:56

Oh, I have not seen it yet.

Jala 03:58

Mm hmm.

Tim 03:58

I'm going this weekend, this next weekend.

Cameron 03:58

It's good. No spoilers.

Jala 04:00

Yeah.

Cameron 04:00

No spoilers, but in enjoy.

Jala 04:01

Yeah. No spoilers, but it's good.

Tim 04:03

Oh, awesome.

Jala 04:03

So, so yeah. And, the, the bonus episode that I was referring to Cutting Room Floor episode, that one is available on the Ko-Fi and that will drop the same day as, um, well, actually it will have already dropped by the time this one airs. So we're good. We're good. You can, you can look that up on the Ko-fi.

Cameron 04:20

Go check that out.

Jala 04:23

So ah yeah Tim you are also in Texas so you know it's cold and it's rainy here we got the opposite so.

Tim 04:28

Yes.

Cameron 04:31

Uh, if only.

Tim 04:33

We're holding and we're crossing our fingers hoping that the grid doesn't do what it did another three years ago.

Cameron 04:37

Yeah. Mm.

Tim 04:39

Oh, my God. Yeah. we're So yes.

Jala 04:41

The Snowpocalypse, yes.

Tim 04:42

Yes. Oh, yeah.

Jala 04:44

Yeah, yeah, like that was when I really felt like I was in Left 4 Dead and like I'm running to the generator with, you know, a gas can, we're trying to fill up the freaking generator out in the middle of the cold, you know, so. So, yeah, yeah, that was a lot. But yeah, anyway, all of the wild weather aside, we are now ready. I am prepared in my soul to talk once more about this old ass TV show. So this is a 1996 American supernatural drama television series loosely based on White Wolf Publishing's TTRPG, Vampire the Masquerade. It ran for only one season, comprising eight episodes, although one of those episodes was never aired on TV. We'll get there. We will talk about it in detail past the spoiler wall. This front part is all just spoiler free. You can listen to this and then go check out Kindred and come back for the rest. But it was included in box sets at the show. So you can still access that unaired episode. It was fully completed and it's available in the boxed sets.

Cameron 05:56

Yeah, it was as completed as the rest of the show.

Jala 06:00

Right.

Tim 06:00

that's--Yes.

Cameron 06:00

That is to say, this is not a spoiler. It's often nighttime in the middle of the day.

Jala 06:06

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. ah Their budget was something.

Cameron 06:12

Yep.

Jala 06:13

But some yeah, so the first episode was 90 minutes, that pilot episode. But then all the subsequent episodes were 45 minutes apiece. And this was produced by John Leekley Productions and Spelling Television. You got Aaron Spelling involved. You know it's going to be drama.

Cameron 06:29

Mm-hmm.

Jala 06:30

And this was created by John Leekley and Mark Rein-Hagen. And Mark Rein-Hagen is the guy who did Vampire of the Masquerade. So this is like co-written, co-created by the guy who did Vampire of the Masquerade, which is wild when we get into the details.

Cameron 06:39

and Yeah.

Tim 06:45

signed off on, yes.

Jala 06:49

Right. So the main cast: Julian Luna, the primary character that you've got, the Prince of the City is Mark Frankel. Then you've got Eddie Fiore, and he's Brian Thompson, whose face has the jaw, whose face has way more muscles, way more muscles and bones and things in his face than anyone thought possible.

Tim 07:03

The jaw. And everything else too, yes.

Cameron 07:06

Yeah. There's a lot going on.

Tim 07:16

I think most famous role is probably Shao Kahn and Mortal Kombat Annihilation if people want to, that's appropriate probably where they recognize him from.

Cameron 07:16

Yeah.

Jala 07:23

They will also know the face from the punks in the beginning of the first Terminator movie.

Tim 07:27

Oh, true. True, yes.

Jala 07:31

Nothing clean. Yeah. Laundry day tomorrow. Nothing clean. Anyway, Daedalus was Jeff Kober. Then Archon Rain was Patrick Bauchau. We have Frank Kohanek, that was C. Thomas Howell. Caitlin Byrne was Kelly Rutherford. Lilly Langtree was Stacey-- I don't know how to pronounce this last name. Haiduk, I suppose. This character, this Lilly Langtree's actress, she was actually on some daytime soap operas and it shows.

She's so good in her role.

Cameron 08:05

Yep.

Jala 08:06

She's so good at this drama.

Cameron 08:08

Yes.

Jala 08:09

Then you've got Sasha Luna, who is Brigid Walsh and Cash is Shannon Rowe. So, so yes, the basic plot of this show in general is that the city of San Francisco is filled with blood suckers ruled over by the Prince of the City, a Ventrue named Julian Luna. A police detective named Frank finds himself the paramour of Julian's former lover who is also a vampire and I suspect becomes her thrall. They never say that he's a thrall.

Cameron 08:38

It feels like it, but yeah.

Jala 08:39

It feels like it. When she is sentenced to death for breaking the Masquerade and telling Frank about the Kindred, but refusing to embrace him, the detective vows to hunt down Julian and all the other vampires as their kind killed his lover. So all of this is basically the premise of that first show. The first episode sets all of this up and kind of gets you into what you think the premise is going to be for the rest of the show, but actually isn't.

Cameron 09:06

Yeah, I will be honest until you mentioned that Frank's motivation was avenging his dead love. I had forgotten that was his motivation.

Tim 09:16

yeah

Cameron 09:16

It's after the first episode that drops off pretty quick.

Jala 09:16

Yeah. Yeah. It's like an episode or two and then he's just, it's not there anymore. So over the course of this, yeah, yeah.

Cameron 09:26

Yeah, it's like, okay, I work here. Yeah.

Jala 09:29

Over the course of the show, Frank and Julian end up in a shippable, to me anyway, frenemy situation where Julian himself ends up falling for a human.

Cameron 09:35

Oh, yeah.

Jala 09:38

He also refuses to Embrace Julian's lover is a newspaper reporter slowly learning about the Kindred through her work and proximity to Julian. So the Masquerade is endangered at least 70 times per episode.

Tim 09:51

yes the Masquerade yes and the and the fact that the paramour of Julian's former lover like that character is like you know since it's the death for that and then it's like the rest of the show is kind of like you know it happens I don't know

Cameron 09:52

and they'll tell you every time this endangers the Masquerade, Julian.

Jala 09:55

They will, they will.

Cameron 10:09

Yeah.

Jala 10:10

When I watched this when it premiered on TV in 1996 because I was doing a bunch of TTRPG stuff at that time and so I was excited for this and then it came out and I watched it and I was so excited after that first episode that I just kept watching it every time it came on and then I was confused. We'll get into a why and how, but the basics about this is that this was a show that had a bunch of changeup of writers.

There was no, ah other than John Leekley writing the first couple of episodes, no cross-pollination of writers working on this.

Cameron 10:50

no

Jala 10:50

It's different people every single episode, and it shows. like Every single episode while we were watching it together, I was like, this sounds like somebody else wrote this guy.

Cameron 11:01

Yeah, yeah, every time.

Jala 11:01

This sounds like somebody else wrote him again. And it's every single time it's kind of following that that pattern. So ah unfortunate because the stuff that John Leekley wrote, I feel those were strong episodes.

Cameron 11:12

Hmm.

Jala 11:14

The first couple of episodes were pretty good.

Cameron 11:15

Yeah.

Jala 11:17

It's just it turned into sort of a train wreck after that with a lot of writer turnover and then ah with the eventual stuff that happened, both with the budget and then with the show being canceled and why that canceled. So yeah, Tim, tell us a little bit about the reception that this got.

Cameron 11:33

Yeah.

Tim 11:35

Oh boy, yes, so Sci-Fi Weekly's Kathie Huddleston called Kindred: The Embraced a cross between The Godfather and Melrose Place. which is something.

Cameron 11:48

It's certainly something.

Tim 11:48

But it was fairly well received, so it held promise. It was a little confusing with some of the kind of the five different vampire clans and the lots of you know proper nouns and terms and terminology being thrown in and that in that pilot episode. While she felt that the character of Frank appeared to, quote, be pulled straight out of a bad cop film,

Jala 12:12

Yes.

Tim 12:12

She praised the character of Julian as a multifaceted character who's both good and evil. So it's, yeah, a lot of the but emphasis was on Frank, or the intention was the emphasis was going to be on Frank, the C. Thomas Howell character. um And then it kind of, you know, yeah as we can, we'll probably get into, he's, a yeah, he's Frank.

Cameron 12:31

Yeah. He's Frank.

Tim 12:33

And Julian showed, I mean, just, yeah, Mark Frankel was a very, very, you know, he was a very charismatic actor who really sold that role really well.

Cameron 12:41

Yeah.

Tim 12:43

Um, and so kind of things transition.

Jala 12:46

Yeah, well and well, and part of it too is because those ratings that they received right around that time, like they were airing the episodes and looking at the ratings and then changing the show depending upon what the ratings were saying. So they were chasing the numbers, which is never how you need to be doing a thing because that's how you get this this kind of a train wreck situation where they tried seven different things in seven different aired episodes, you know?

Cameron 13:03

No. Yeah, yeah it's it feels very disjointed because of that, unfortunately.

Jala 13:17

Right.

Cameron 13:17

Because I agree that the start is actually quite strong. There's a lot of great stuff going on early on and there's some good bits throughout. But if it was more cohesive, I think it would have been a lot better overall.

Jala 13:30

Oh, yeah. And, you know, like I have told both of y'all in the green room, but I seriously am going to sit down at some point and write myself some Kindred: The Embraced fanfiction, because like I feel like I can do justice to these characters.

Cameron 13:40

Yes. Yes.

Jala 13:46

I've sat with them in the back of my head for a long time, you know, and I'm not chasing ratings.

Cameron 13:46

Hmm. Yeah.

Tim 13:50

Awesome.

Jala 13:51

So I think I might be able to do something fun. But yeah, so ah Tim, you were saying

Cameron 13:54

That helps.

Tim 13:57

Sure. Yes. So yeah, in addition, Ken Tucker from Entertainment Weekly also compared the series to The Godfather. So that's two times The Godfather, but it was The Godfather soaked in blood, calling it knottily, with a K, knottily mystifying. Like Huddleston, he disliked the character of Frank, wishing that he'd been killed by a vampire early in the series, while also praising the elegant and intelligent Prince Julian.

So kind of, that's kind of the theme is, um.

Jala 14:27

The theme is down with Frank and it shows because it's kind of like, the first episode set it up, like Frank is going to be the primary character here and it's going to be him facing off against Julian and all the vampires. And so that's what you think at the beginning of the show. And then just, he kind of just starts sliding more and more into the background to where he's just kind of, uh, wallpaper, you know,

Cameron 14:50

Yeah, he shows up maybe once an episode by the end to do Frank stuff.

Tim 14:50

You kind of forget until he pops up again and it's like, oh yeah, seemingly the main character. Okay. And kind of going back to what you were saying about so many writers changing and the kind of the theme of the show and the but thread kind of being lost.

Jala 15:02

Yep.

Tim 15:09

Some of the characters kind of seem like they forget things that they already knew in the past.

Jala 15:14

Right.

Tim 15:14

And it's just like, so-and-so knew that so-and-so knew this, but I don't know that anymore. And it's just like, yeah, kind of gets just jumbled a little bit.

Jala 15:20

Well, at that point, it like with that sort of episodic amnesia that they get, it's definitely the case that you have certain situations with certain characters repeat at the beginning of every episode, it feels like. And that's what's going to cause the problem every episode because, you know, like they're not, you know, um having a continuity between each of these different scenarios that they're writing.

Tim 15:34

Yeah. yeah

Jala 15:46

So that said, before we get into kind of some of the details of production and everything, I wanted to kind of like talk to both of y'all and kind of sit with it a minute. Because like so far, it sounds like we're really a mixed bag. You know, this is the show is a mixed bag. But what is it about it that we like that we're talking about it on the show today? So um I will actually start with you, Tim, because this is you have willingly come back twice out of out of nowhere out of being an internet cryptid to speak upon this show.

Tim 16:12

Sure. Haha. Absolutely. So yeah, for with me, I mean, I am a vampire lover, both the proper, uh, the uppercase V Vampire: The Masquerade, and also just vampires in general. So I just have a fondness for the property and also am a child of the nineties. I did not see this show like you Jala when it came out originally, but it was one of those kind of actually, funnily enough, um, you probably remember the bookstore, uh, franchise Hastings, you recall that I used to work there.

Jala 16:49

Mm hmm.

Tim 16:51

And one of the things I ordered that I never actually got to pick up before I left the job was like the box set of it ah on DVD.

Cameron 16:52

Oh.

Jala 16:58

ah Oh.

Tim 16:59

And I never got to see it. So I never actually got to see the show until we watched it.

Jala 17:04

Four years ago, mm hmm.

Tim 17:04

but as a group four years ago um yes so but yeah definitely um fondness for it from the perspective of hey vampire is cool but also it is endearingly campy and 90s and it's fun to kind of see what they tried to adapt and what they failed to adapt and what you know some of the parts that they actually do successfully kind of show some of the um

Cameron 17:05

Wow.

Jala 17:06

Yeah.

Tim 17:32

The gravitas and the challenges of being a vampire in the nights of this big city. But yeah, it's just the acting, strangely enough, I mean, like we kind of said, a lot of the acting is actually really good. A lot of very charismatic people in these roles, a lot of, oh, hey, it's that guy. um That's fun to do. So yeah, it's just a fun little kind of time capsule into a particular version of a thing that is important to me, the kind of the, you know, the Vampire: The Masquerade, tabletop role-playing game, and then just kind of this very particularly particular version of it that is done in a way that's, I'm not going to say again, it's hard to say like just great or good, but memorable.

Yes, memorable for sure.

Jala 18:26

Yeah. Yeah. So how about you, Cameron? Why did you agree to be on this show?

Cameron 18:33

Well, first of all, I love spending time with all of you. It's very fun to talk about basically anything, but this is actually a really fun show. I really, really enjoyed it. Part of that enjoyment is that sort of semi derisive, look at what they're doing, come on, kind of thing, but it is still really fun.

Jala 18:55

right

Cameron 18:57

I simply don't watch traditional TV anymore at this point. And that's not to say I don't watch series of things, but TV shows made for streaming are so different to TV shows made for free to air television.

Tim 19:10

Oh yeah.

Jala 19:14

Yeah.

Cameron 19:14

There is like an essential something that shifts in the pacing and even like the styling and framing and a lot of things. And this watching this was a massive, huge hit of nostalgia. ah Because I too, watched this as a release as a two year old baby. No, I didn't. But TV in this style is what I grew up with. Like my entire childhood was watching various soap operas or dramas that are shot and framed and paced exactly like this.

And it was really, really, really fun to get back into it. My wife really likes Vampire: The Masquerade. She's been talking about running a game for about six years. Hasn't gotten around to it yet, but maybe one day, but I have that sort of

Tim 19:59

As one does.

Cameron 20:00

Yeah, exactly. I have that sort of tangential interest in the franchise as well. I think it's really rich and really interesting. I'm more of a werewolf guy personally, but they also have that in the in the World of Darkness universe.

Jala 20:13

Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

Cameron 20:15

Um, so it's, it's around in that sphere of things I like. It's a tabletop thing. It's got supernatural stuff going on. So I've always been aware of it, but to dive a little more into it was quite fun. Uh, and to see just how much of it is vampires being like catty bitches at each other over politics.

Tim 20:35

Oh, 100%.

Cameron 20:37

That's the draw of the show. The draw of the show is Julian snarking it up with three other extremely attractive people and Daedalus.

Tim 20:42

Yes.

Jala 20:45

Who is just bald, God damn it. He's just bald.

Cameron 20:48

I know, he's not a monster.

Tim 20:49

gosh ah

Cameron 20:51

He's just got alopecia.

Jala 20:51

Right. Right, right. So yeah, for me, ah definitely it's sort of a lot of the same kind of stuff. I had some nostalgia and some affection for Vampire of the Masquerade to begin with. And then I also watched TV at this time. And so I caught this as it was airing. So this was obviously, you know, this was like my, what was I, early teens at this point, maybe or something around there. So I was just it right in the pocket for seeing this and then being deeply impressed by it, not in the terms of like, oh, wow, this is so fantastic. But like it leaving its mark on me to where I remember it and I think about it. And I hear Archon in my head all the time. You're endangering the Masquerade, Julian. Like I hear this in my head so much. And you know, like there's things that I internally am referencing for myself that now I can say to Cameron and Tim in addition to Dave and Desiree and John who were on that other episode.

Cameron 21:53

like We understood that reference.

Tim 21:57

Yes. Yeah, yeah

Jala 21:57

Yes, some people understood that reference from the show from Fucking Forever ago that was only one season and eight episodes. I will say, like I've I've kind of since I first watched the show onward, I have always been a Daedalus fan.

Cameron 22:14

Oh, yeah.

Jala 22:15

I've really liked Daedalus.

Tim 22:17

yeah. yeah

Jala 22:17

Daedalus was my favorite character. So that was then. And then like I saw the unaired episode much, much later. But I already liked Daedalus by that point. So we'll talk more about that after the spoiler wall.

Tim 22:29

Mm hmm.

Cameron 22:29

Yeah.

Jala 22:31

but so Yeah, to kind of transition into some production stuff. There's not a whole lot out there about the production because this was a 90s show and it was just one of several TV shows out there on the market and it wasn't like the big hit.

Cameron 22:43

Yeah.

Jala 22:45

So it received overall good ratings and things, but you know like they again, they were just so piecemeal chasing those numbers to, you know, up the ratings even more because they were trying to make this into a big deal. And, you know, like this one was aired in a different time slot than the usual Aaron Spelling productions and things.

Tim 23:06

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Jala 23:08

So, um you know, like they were trying some stuff here.

Cameron 23:08

Yeah.

Jala 23:12

And the reason why the show was canceled, which I hadn't just you know discussed quite yet, but they were looking at it and they were trying to consider whether or not they wanted to continue it for the next season. But right around that time, Mark Frankel, the actor who played Julian Luna, the linchpin of the entire show, was in a big car wreck and died. And so he died and they were like, we can't keep the show going without Julian.

Cameron 23:37

and Yeah.

Jala 23:46

And that is definitely a tragedy for various reasons. He left behind a couple of sons who also then, at least one of them became an actor and a model after that. And he really looks like his dad.

Tim 24:02

Yes, I saw that picture that you shared in the notes and it's like, wow.

Jala 24:02

you know He, yeah, he, he looks like a cross between Mark Frankel, like Julian and then Frank. And I was like, this is the love child.

Tim 24:10

Yes, it happened.

Cameron 24:11

Yeah.

Tim 24:14

Yes.

Jala 24:14

So yeah. Yeah. But anyway, the show was based on Vampire the Masquerade by Mark Rein-Hagen. The production was extremely low cost. Sometimes read often they had to shoot sequences during the day to save money. and So Tim, you have additional notes on this.

Tim 24:35

Yeah, just talking about how they really tried to, at first, like the first few episodes, at least that first 90-minute semi you know-movie thing, they tried to add filters to kind of make it look like it's you know not quite night, but hey, we can pretend that the sun hasn't maybe quite come up yet. It's literally the zenith of this guy. um Or they kind of try to use little throwaway lines of saying, oh, you know I just I just fed before I got here in the you know perfectly blue sunny sky. ah But then eventually as the show goes on, as we're saying, it kind of just stopped really bothering justifying it. It's just, hey, vampires in the sun.

Cameron 25:12

yeah

Tim 25:13

It happens. Get over it.

Jala 25:15

Right. Well, and what's very funny too is that when they have the vampires that are out during the daytime and you know, like they acknowledge that it's daytime a few times in the beginning and they're like, yeah, I just fed. They're also wearing dark, dark sunglasses.

Tim 25:27

Yes.

Cameron 25:27

yeah all right so this is our sort of traditional vampire the Masquerade thing we've got i believe it's five clans of vampires that should be right that are in the show yeah there's more than that in the overall thing um they were not

Jala 25:30

It's very funny. It's very rock star of them. So, so yeah, Cameron, tell us a little bit about the clans that are in the show. Yeah.

Cameron 25:55

strictly faithful to the source material in the portrayal of the clans. um But this is mostly ah like the real change was to the Brujah, which, you know, your traditional quick to temper, very rebellious clan are actually just the ah the dockworkers union.

Jala 26:15

Yeah, they and like their suits.

Cameron 26:16

Very, very organized in their suits.

Tim 26:19

ah just the mob hey she's the mob you know

Cameron 26:21

Just, yeah, they literally they literally became the mob. but Um, but apart from that, um, you know, in Vampire: The Masquerade TTRPG, uh, the clans do have a lot of like variation, a lot of distinction between clans to really help them stand out.

Jala 26:24

Yeah.

Cameron 26:40

Uh, everyone in this is a, either in a suit or a slinky dress, uh, very beautiful, very standard, like traditional beauty people, with the exception of the Nosferatu. Who are bald?

Jala 26:54

That's it.

Tim 26:55

Yep.

Jala 26:55

They're bald.

Cameron 26:55

That's about it.

Jala 26:56

And some of them have some fucked up teeth.

Cameron 26:56

They're bald. Yeah, and like, you know, like, yeah, Daedalus has something going on with his earlobe sort of growing into his neck a tiny bit, but like, in vamp- yeah.

Tim 27:00

and A little dental work. Oh, yes. He had some gauges when he was in college that didn't he didn't really. Yeah. Yeah.

Jala 27:09

Right.

Cameron 27:10

yeah like in In the tabletop, Nosferatu are like the traditional old full horror monster vampires. They are meant to be like disgusting to look at to the point where like it shocks mortals and would immediately break the Masquerade.

Jala 27:25

right yeah right

Cameron 27:25

And Daedalus is just a bald guy with some veins and some weird ear lobes. 90% of the Nosferatu are like that until we get into like the later the later bits of the show. We have some slightly more creepy looking Nosferatu that are still just sort of They just got, they just got a bald cap on. It's fine.

Jala 27:46

Right. Well, then like Lily, who is the Toreador clan leader, ah is like, we're the sexy ones. I like i think I have a ah screenshot of that particular thing. and like They had a whole episode where they're trying to emphasize what the Toreador clan is about, ah where like there's like you know, she runs a nightclub and she's an artistic person.

Cameron 27:58

Yeah.

Jala 28:09

The Toreador, the art artsy fartsy clan, the musical clan.

Cameron 28:11

Yeah.

Jala 28:13

And so there's like ah this whole thing that happens with a musician in Lily's club. And so, oh yeah, we'll get there.

Tim 28:19

Rock and roll.

Cameron 28:19

yeah

Jala 28:24

But Tim, I know that you very much are into the tabletop game. So what notes do you have about--

Tim 28:31

Sure. Yeah, so kind of just ah kind of like what Cameron was talking about, they kind of mentioned that there's five drink clans in the show. um And aside from the Nosferatu having their you know, horribly disgusting bald heads um and variably different earlobes, they didn't really do much to differentiate them.

Cameron 28:46

Nothing.

Tim 28:52

So especially, you know, ah a lot of emphasis and a lot of episodes draw attention to the fact that the Brujah and the Gangrel, which is one another one of the clans, the clan that Cash, which we'll also talk about, is a member of our mortal enemies. But aside from just saying that, there's not really much energy given to why and what it is that it makes them distinct.

Jala 29:19

Right.

Tim 29:20

um Same with the Ventrue being what you know Julian and Archon, the kind of leadership, kind of you know the mental boss type sort of clan.

Cameron 29:30

Yeah.

Tim 29:30

There's not really a whole lot of emphasis given on to what actually makes them a clan, why, ah and which is just kind of would have been the interesting you know, fuel for good television and good world building. But also, you know, I'm sure it was right for kind of making way too much. That's the word I'm trying to think of. I'm bringing just a blank on me.

Cameron 29:51

Like exposition stuff?

Tim 29:52

Exposition, yes, yes. Too much exposition. So I'm sure there was a tricky balance there.

Cameron 29:55

Yeah.

Tim 29:57

But yeah, for sure, it's just they're all vampires and some of them are bald.

Cameron 29:57

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean a bunch of the show is already noun at noun with noun. So if you're not, if you don't already know what's going on, it can be a little odd sometimes.

Tim 30:13

For sure.

Jala 30:13

Oh, man, so there is a part where Cash is talking to a newly made vampire and he's trying to explain what's going on because this character is like, I don't understand what's happening to me. And then he's just like the vaguest fucking possible thing he could say. And then he throws down soup at her and is just like the blah with the blind says nothing to explain further.

Cameron 30:33

Yeah.

Tim 30:37

Nope.

Jala 30:40

It is so like, I can understand why people who didn't know about the tabletop game would look at the show and go, I don't know what they're talking about.

Cameron 30:41

Yeah.

Jala 30:49

Like what? You know, I mean, if you, if you have any kind of snap to about fantasy type stuff, you can probably figure it out. But like, if this is not your wheelhouse to begin with, and you're just flipping through channels, you're just going to see that one scene and go, nevermind.

Cameron 31:03

Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm okay.

Tim 31:07

And it's also funny that the Brujah, Spanish for witch, and then again, that's the ah mob kind of sort of just guys in suits, which is like, I could see somebody who doesn't have the

Cameron 31:07

Thank you.

Tim 31:19

Any knowledge of the tabletop being like, why are they called that? I don't, it doesn't quite fit.

Jala 31:23

Right.

Tim 31:25

Anyways, yeah, interesting choice.

Jala 31:26

Yeah. yep So we already talked about why the show was canceled and everything. But yeah, Julian as a character was really the linchpin of the entire show. And without him driving everything and his relationship with the human that he falls in love with later in the show, there wouldn't be a show. like a lot of the other characters, they're just kind of like floating around somewhere, but they're all usually focused on him and what he's doing.

Tim 31:58

Very much, yes.

Jala 31:59

Some other fun facts though, all the paintings used in the show are originals by Jeff Kober who played Daedalus. All of the paintings that Daedalus is painting in the show, he literally painted those paintings.

Cameron 32:08

That's awesome. Yeah.

Tim 32:11

That's so cool, yeah.

Cameron 32:12

That's great. I actually love that.

Jala 32:15

Yeah, yeah. And then Kindred also received higher ratings than Buffy the Vampire Slayer when it premiered the very next year.

Tim 32:21

Wow.

Cameron 32:22

Wow.

Jala 32:23

So had Kindred continued into a second season, Buffy may never have happened.

Tim 32:23

Yeah.

Cameron 32:28

Oh, man.

Tim 32:31

That's true. wow

Jala 32:32

It also had higher ratings than Melrose Place. So this show was really well, well taken to for the most part.

Cameron 32:38

Yeah.

Jala 32:40

It's just that like, It, it suffered from just having too much writer turnover, chasing those ratings and, you know, like not having enough cohesion between those episodes.

Cameron 32:43

Yeah.

Jala 32:51

And then also just Mark Frankel passing away just doomed it to be just this one season, you know, because even if it was the way that it was, and then like it got to a second season, they might've found their footing on try number two and, and kind of really taken it to places.

Cameron 33:07

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 33:10

There have been several.

Tim 33:10

1996 right on the cusp of right before the, you know, The Matrix and Dark City and that kind of era starts.

Jala 33:12

Yeah.

Tim 33:17

It really could have capitalized on that with the whole black leather kind of sort of vibe. But yeah, wasn't meant to be.

Cameron 33:22

Yeah.

Jala 33:23

Yeah. Yeah, I know. There's definitely, I've seen several different websites and several different, you know, Reddit threads and stuff like that, where people are like, I would love it if they rebooted Kindred, if they just took this property and just rebooted it and made it now and like, you know, try it again, but like did better with it, you know?

Cameron 33:40

yeah oh just one but

Jala 33:45

Right, right. So ah we are now at the spoiler wall section of this podcast. So before we kick off into the spoilers, I wanted to ask you all, what do you think, ah who would you recommend this show to?

Cameron 34:02

Ooh, that's an interesting question.

Tim 34:03

Oh, yeah.

Cameron 34:05

Um, first off, if you like vampires, this has vampires doing vampire stuff while also just standing around being very attractive at each other. So if you, if you've got a general idea, general interest in vampires and the supernatural, 100%.

Tim 34:15

Yes.

Cameron 34:21

But if you like soap operas, you hear this, this is a big soap opera with a vampire skin on top.

Jala 34:24

Mm hmm. Right.

Tim 34:30

Very much. I echo everything that you said, Cameron.

Cameron 34:34

Yeah, fair enough.

Tim 34:36

If you're into vampires, and also, you know again, just kind of some just having fun. The story is followable, and there are very dramatic and you know melodramatic scenes of ah people exclaiming things very loudly and passionately.

Cameron 34:52

No, no, absolutely not.

Tim 34:52

um it's very it's very It's definitely not a boring show. um it is ah It is definitely a fun show to watch and see some very big ideas and people really eating up the scenery in a very fun, vampiry way.

Cameron 35:07

Mmm.

Jala 35:07

Right. Yeah. For its time period, they were really trying something really like interesting with this because there weren't vampires on TV before this. Buffy came out the next year. It had higher ratings than Buffy did.

Tim 35:19

very true

Jala 35:21

It had higher ratings than Melrose Place. People were interested in this and it could have gone somewhere if they had done something, you know, if they were able to do something more with it.

Cameron 35:32

Absolutely.

Jala 35:33

So I would also just add if people are fans of Vampire: The Masquerade and they are not super attached to and so ah the way that they exist in that media, like if you can accept, um you know, other people's interpretations and stuff, understand that this is plays fast and loose with original Vampire the Masquerade stuff, but it is ah definitely worth checking out in my opinion for

Tim 35:49

Very true.

Jala 36:01

And also people who just like 90s TV or era anything Aaron Spelling ever made, you know, like you will like this.

Cameron 36:06

Yeah.

Tim 36:07

Sure.

Jala 36:07

So, so yeah, that's what I got to say about that. So now we will have a little music break and come back to talk about the episodes. And we are back to talk about the episodes of this show. So the pilot, the one that I was so excited about that was so neat to me when I first watched it was basically just called pilot.

Cameron 37:48

Yeah.

Jala 37:48

They didn't put a name.

Tim 37:49

Yep.

Jala 37:49

They just aired it with no name.

Tim 37:50

Right?

Jala 37:51

But during this episode, a police detective called Frank Kohanek has learned that vampires exist, but he doesn't realize that he's surrounded by them. The businessman whom he suspects is a mobster, Julian Luna, is the prince of the San Francisco Kindred clans. Frank's girlfriend, Alexandra, Kate Vernon, is Julian's ex and also a vampire. When she reveals herself breaking the Masquerade, her un-life is forfeit.

So this episode that this episode really, it does start with Alexandra on a date with Frank and all of that.

Cameron 38:21

Yeah. Yes.

Jala 38:32

And you see Alexandra um getting up like when they are at the restaurant and he's like, oh, your hands are so cold. And she's like, oh, let me go freshen up. And she goes into the bathroom and there's just like a lady snorting a line of Coke in the bathroom. And so Alexandra hits on her and then you know um ends up sucking her blood and then leaving the bathroom. And then Frank's like, oh, you're so warm now.

And she has like a little spot of blood on her shirt. so And that's how it starts. with everything. Although actually, no, I take that back. It starts with ah an image of this wolf etching on the front door of Julian's house, and then it like goes through to show his face on the other side.

Cameron 39:14

Yeah.

Jala 39:20

ah But the next memorable scene after that very ridiculous intro. is the part with Alexandra. And as you go on, you're introduced to a bunch of different characters and all of that. It really focuses mostly on Alexandra, who gives me like that, that actress gives me real Michelle Pfeiffer vibes.

Tim 39:38

Good, yes.

Cameron 39:38

Yeah.

Tim 39:39

I could see that, you know, for sure.

Jala 39:41

Yeah, yeah. And um so what do you all think about this first 90 minute long double length episode?

Cameron 39:52

Tim, you want to go first?

Tim 39:53

Oh, yes. So yes, it definitely introduces the show, like the vibe of the show, which is that kind of soap opera-y, but also still, you know, vaguely creepy kind of sort of vibe of the quote unquote San Francisco nightlife.

Cameron 39:54

Yeah, I went first last time.

Tim 40:15

um ah And you mentioned about the part where, you know, Alexandra and meets the woman in the bathroom and ends up taking her blood. I think that's maybe the only you one or two times. I think they're both maybe in this first episode where it actually shows vampires partaking in blood in a very unbloody fashion. I'm sure that was something in the 90s that was difficult to justify showing on television at the time. um But it definitely you know kind of shows what the theme of the show is. And Frank, it introduces us to our temporary protagonist, Frank.

Jala 40:52

Yeah.

Tim 40:52

who definitely played by C. Thomas Howell, yes, who kind of has that, you know, playing a character from like a 1940s noir movie or something, but just happened to be transported in the 90s.

Cameron 41:07

Yeah, in the 90s, San Francisco.

Jala 41:10

Right.

Tim 41:12

But he pulls off that kind of hard boiled vaguely unlikable, but I got to do my job, kind of sort of cop.

Jala 41:19

right

Tim 41:20

um and it But it definitely lands you know plants the seeds of Julian kind of being there and being played by Mark Frankel so charismatically and it's a lot of fun to kind of introduce us to all these characters.

Jala 41:36

Well, one of the things that I really like about this is, is it this first episode? I think it is where Daedalus, like they're trying to go and fetch his corpse because like one of the man, I forgot the way this thing starts. It starts with Frank and his partner, Sunny, and they're going because there's some guys on a roof that are staking a man through the heart just as the sun is coming up. And this is um Julian Luna's bodyguard and it's Stevie Ray. I think the name is.

Tim 42:04

Oh, yeah, that's right, yes.

Cameron 42:04

Yep.

Jala 42:06

And um so the Brujah, you know, just um staked him through the heart and then the sun came up and he just lit a fire. So then that body is at the morgue. And so Frank is like, what is going on with this? But he's also dating this Alexandra, who is just kind of like telling him, oh, that's weird.

Cameron 42:20

Hmm.

Jala 42:25

But, you know, like there's spontaneous human combustion, you know, like trying to hide things and everything.

Cameron 42:29

Yeah. Yeah.

Jala 42:31

And He does a very good job of being of playing a character who is really, really in love with Alexandra and all of that and kind of comes across as a bit naive in the first episode because like he's hopeful and kind of like opened up to her and everything. And it's after that that he has that big, big chip on his shoulder. So um this first episode shows a different side of Frank that you don't see again.

Cameron 43:00

Yeah.

Jala 43:01

But ah there's during this episode Daedalus doing his Nosferatu, I'm the creepy one a thing, where he's told by Julian he needs to go and take care of the coroner because ah they can't have the Masquerade broken by Stevie Ray's body ah being examined. So Daedalus goes into the morgue through like the storage freezing locker thing.

Cameron 43:23

yeah

Tim 43:31

Yeah, what are those called?

Jala 43:35

I don't know what they're called, Cameron.

Cameron 43:37

Um, yeah, just, just a body tray.

Jala 43:40

Okay, so he comes in through a body tray like it just slides out from the wall and he just gets up off of it and goes and you know in sources the Coroner and then the coroner I think kills himself at that point or something um and then the body of Stevie Ray is removed by Daedalus after that so obviously like that's, that's a real subtle way to handle that problem. Definitely not going to raise any red flags to anybody.

Cameron 44:07

Oh, yeah.

Tim 44:09

No! I think Steven mentioned like, oh wow, why does he have no blood in his body after this happened?

Jala 44:14

Right.

Tim 44:15

What? And it's like, oh, hmm, yeah.

Cameron 44:17

Weird.

Tim 44:17

That's great, huh?

Jala 44:18

Well, I mean, like the vampires have been there for a long time. Why is it that suddenly, suddenly everybody's getting suspicious of this, you know? Oh, ah that's weird. Hmm. Anyway.

Cameron 44:29

Someone came to town and said, you know, exsanguination isn't a natural cause of death. And they went, uh, what?

Tim 44:34

Oh, what?

Cameron 44:36

You sure? It happens all the time.

Jala 44:38

Right?

Tim 44:39

Yeah, it shouldn't be.

Jala 44:40

Right, right. So ah when Frank is with Alexandra, because that's kind of the focus of most of the episode, you also see some little bits where like Julian is going to Lily's Club and then like some Bruja come by and they've got phosphorous guns, ah white phosphorous guns that ah allegedly white phosphorous can take down a vampire.

Cameron 44:49

Yeah.

Tim 44:56

Mm, that's true.

Jala 45:03

So they're shooting these clown guns at each other, they're like massively huge.

Cameron 45:07

Yeah.

Jala 45:09

and shooting these things at each other. um And they basically try to do a drive by. And Julian ends up recruiting a gang role who is from the same clan as Stevie Ray, his prior bodyguard. He recruits Cash, who is the new primogen or a leader of the gang role clan.

Cameron 45:26

Yes.

Jala 45:27

And he recruits Cash to be his new bodyguard because of all the stuff going on with the Brujah. And you know the Brujah are never that much of a menace again. But in this first episode, they really are.

Cameron 45:38

Yeah.

Jala 45:38

because they killed Julian's bodyguard and then they did all this other stuff.

Cameron 45:39

Yeah.

Jala 45:43

And, you know, I mean, they come back later and they do have some more important stuff going on later. But, you know, just kind of feels like this one, you know, they're a little bit more over the top here.

Cameron 45:52

Yeah. Yeah. The setup is like a potential, like major antagonist, which they sort of end up being for parts of later episodes, but they're never as omnipresently aggressive as they are.

Jala 46:06

Right.

Cameron 46:07

And, and. In this first episode, they feel a little more bruja because of that. like They're meant to be aggressive and rebellious and that kind of stuff.

Tim 46:15

Yeah.

Cameron 46:16

And then right after this, they turn into the Dark Workers Union mob in suits and just stay that way for the rest of the show, which is a little out of character.

Jala 46:21

right yeah oh for sure but um frank ends up finally like getting tipped off about what the Masquerade is and what Alexandra is when you know they're together and then um he's laying there with her and then he's like oh my god i can't feel your heart beating oh my god and he's panicking he's panicking and then she's just like Oh, well, let me tell you about this thing called the Masquerade. and so she like shows him you know that she can heal herself, you know heal her own wounds.

Tim 47:00

in a very beautifully designed like bedroom that set design on that scene is just like oh yes like a wonderful like a music video of like Madonna music video or something from the late 80s early 90s or something yeah think so yeah

Jala 47:13

Right. Right. So, ah but yeah, like there's this whole thing and then she doesn't she drink a little bit of his blood just a little bit because he nicks himself shaving.

Cameron 47:21

Yeah, just a little sip. Just a little sippy.

Jala 47:26

Yeah. Sippy sip. But um I think, doesn't she give him a little bit of her blood too?

Tim 47:32

That is what, yes.

Jala 47:33

I think so. Cause they show that because that's why I was like, Oh, he's a thrall. That's why he's so upset.

Cameron 47:37

Oh, yeah.

Jala 47:38

So, so yeah.

Cameron 47:38

Yeah, absolutely.

Tim 47:40

And he's suddenly so energized and he's never felt better in his entire life. Yeah.

Jala 47:44

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. so ah Then there's like a whole bunch of back and forth near the back end of the episode between Julian and Alexandra, where you know they talk a little bit about their past and Alexandra was turned into a vampire by Julian. and you know um Her innocence was corrupted by that, and Julian's have always been feeling guilty about it ever since, so he has an extra soft spot for her. and you know He's like, you have to ah embrace Frank, and then she's like, I can't do that to him like you did that to me.

I'm not going to do that to him. And so Julian's like, look, if you take him and leave the city, then I will let you live, but you need to go. And she tries to convince Frank and Frank won't go.

Cameron 48:28

Yeah.

Jala 48:30

So that dooms Alexandra, who is then um part of, you know, a blood hunt is called on her to kill her.

Cameron 48:37

Yeah.

Jala 48:39

And it's interesting because Daedalus is the one who has to ah take care of business.

Cameron 48:44

Hmm.

Jala 48:44

So you find out that basically Daedalus is Julian's right hand and takes care of all the unsavory stuff for him.

Cameron 48:51

Hmm.

Tim 48:52

The dirty work, yeah, for sure.

Jala 48:53

Yeah. Yeah, so Daedalus slits her throat and then dumps her near the river and says, the water is your salvation or something like that. And then she's crawling across all this pavement. It's very clearly daytime, which is part of what makes that episode funny. um They tried to put a filter on it, but it's very clearly daytime.

Cameron 49:12

Yes.

Jala 49:15

But the sun is about to come up. and she's crawling across the pavement, and then she gets to the edge of the water, and she's about to jump off, but because Frank shows up right about then, and then Frank is like, oh no, my my ah former wife you know had committed suicide by jumping off a bridge and killing herself, and so now I'm traumatized. Alexandra, no, and then she stops and turns and looks at him,

And that little bit of extra time stopping to look at him causes her to then catch on fire and fall into the water and die.

Tim 49:49

Mmm. Pacific couldn't get worse, you know.

Cameron 49:53

Spontaneous combustion, you say?

Jala 49:56

Yeah. Yeah. So um that was sure a thing and that that dummy that they throw off the bridge is hilarious.

Cameron 50:00

Hmm. Oh, man. So good.

Tim 50:06

Was never meant to be seen in a higher definition. No.

Cameron 50:09

No, absolutely not.

Jala 50:11

It didn't look convincing even on old TVs.

Tim 50:13

No.

Jala 50:14

So ah it was never convincing is the truth of the matter. So yeah, and that's like the first episode. That's how that wraps up. So Frank's partner, Sonny, is trying to convince Frank that he doesn't need to keep digging into this. And he's crazy. He's crazy, you know, trying to look into all this.

Tim 50:36

Yeah.

Jala 50:38

I think you're imagining stuff. You need a break, Frank, and all of that. And you find out more about that later. I'm not sure if it's this first episode, I think is the second one.

Tim 50:46

think it is I think it is the end of this first episode.

Jala 50:48

Oh, okay. That you find out that Sonny, his partner, Frank's partner is actually a vampire as well.

Cameron 50:55

Yeah.

Jala 50:56

And he's working for Julian slash maybe Eddie. So.

Cameron 51:01

Maybe.

Tim 51:02

And they kind of bring it up maybe two or three times total across the entire show.

Jala 51:06

Well, it was going to be a thread that they could pick up and use later and really do a lot of fun stuff if Frank were the main character. But once Frank was no longer the main character, Sonny became inconsequential.

Cameron 51:17

Kind of pointless. Yeah.

Tim 51:18

Pretty much.

Jala 51:21

So moving right along, how about you tell us about Prince of the City, the second episode, Cameron?

Cameron 51:29

Yeah, ah basically. Things are sinusculate. So we're sort of still sticking on that track with Brujah being potentially antagonistic in this. um And so, you know, they're pushing against the bounds of authority. They don't want to be under the prince of the city anymore. You know, Ventrues should be in charge with Brujah. We're better. And ah so, as part of this rebellion, Eddie Fiore, the primogen of the Brujah, orders the killing of an informant ah to the police, a man named Boyle.

And, you know, they just walk in on a bunch of Brujah just killing this guy, which obviously threatens the Masquerade. Obviously.

Tim 52:18

And Frank, with all of his detective know-how, just grabs the weapon and is just like, what happened?

Jala 52:24

Yeah!

Tim 52:24

Everyone else walks in and it's like, oh.

Cameron 52:24

Oh, man.

Tim 52:29

Perfect.

Cameron 52:30

um Yeah. ah However, ah despite flagrantly breaking the Masquerade, Eddie Fiore is not sentenced to the final death because the ah Council of the ruling clans, the five ah the five council members here are split to on whether or not to execute him um you know you know it was his underlings fault etc etc you know he didn't do the killing that kind of that kind of

Jala 52:53

Right. Well, in in and part of the reason why it's split 2-2 is because the clan leader of the Toreador, the primogen Lily, is in cahoots with Eddie. This is kind of set up. I don't remember if it's in the first episode a little bit.

Tim 53:10

man Yes.

Jala 53:13

I think it's definitely in the beginning somewhere and in the second episode some, but they are talking to each other because Lily is the current lover of Julian and Lily

Cameron 53:19

Yeah.

Jala 53:24

ah wants Julian to basically be more of a vampire dammit.

Cameron 53:28

Yeah.

Jala 53:29

And, and so Eddie is like, well, I want Julian out of the way, actually. So ah maybe we can work something out here and, you know, be allies so we can work something out. So we both get what we want, you know.

Tim 53:43

Yeah, the relationship between Julian and Lily is a very interesting one across the show because it has that kind of, they're obviously lovers.

Cameron 53:42

yeah

Tim 53:50

She lives at his house, which is like ah just what you do. But then there's always, yeah, like you could vaguely tell, or not even vaguely, just outright tell that she is kind of sort of trying to orchestrate his demise or at least downfall in some capacity. But then the next episode, she's in love with him.

Cameron 54:05

Yeah.

Tim 54:07

So it's, yeah, it's ah it's an interesting, fun, kind of very dramatic story.

Jala 54:12

Well, i I think for Lily, the thing is, is that she is a vampire through and through. And Julian is very much pandering to humankind. And that is what ah Lily hates about Julian. She wants Julian the prince to be a VAMPIRE-vampire. And stop piddling around with humans. Stop being so soft-hearted on people all the time.

Cameron 54:35

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 54:36

and things like that. She wants him to be a killer. She wants him to not care about humans. And you know so that causes a lot of stigma. And especially when in this episode, ah we have the introduction of Caitlin Byrne, who is a human.

Cameron 54:48

Yes.

Jala 54:53

And she is a reporter and she is interested in Julian Luna.

Cameron 54:53

Yeah.

Jala 54:57

And she comes to Lilly's Club and starts talking to Julian. and is trying to do an interview. And then Julian's like, I'll ask answer you questions if you answer my questions too, and we'll do it over dinner. And he just like max on her immediately. And because he's Julian, she's like, okay.

Cameron 55:13

Yeah.

Jala 55:16

And Lily is immediately jealous because she can tell that Julian is not just like doing this you know as ah ah for the funsies or whatever. He is actually like falling for this Caitlin girl.

Cameron 55:29

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 55:29

So, you know, like ah her hatred and jealousy of other people getting Julian's attention is part of it. But it's funny because they both have taken other lovers before, but she doesn't like the fact that he's so profoundly in love with this Caitlin character.

Cameron 55:49

Yeah. and it is funny. This is the kind of storyline I would expect to see from a vampire, the Masquerade setting, which is an investigative reporter going, why is the richest man in the city, someone no one ever sees? And there is nothing known about their business.

Tim 56:05

True.

Cameron 56:06

What's going on with this? Can I get in with this guy? And he's like, yeah, he's a vampire. Of course he's a vampire.

Jala 56:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, there's definitely some DNA here where it's like, OK, this is setting it up to where like it's going to do some Vampire the Masquerade shit here.

Cameron 56:14

ah And, uh, yeah. Hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Jala 56:26

So like these first couple of episodes, like I said, those were both written by, uh, John Leekley. So that's why they're both very good and cohesive and they're, they're pretty good. I mean, like other ones, there are other episodes that are also pretty good. Um, you know, or have moments that are good, but these first two are really the ones that set up a lot of things in motion that ended up getting dropped by some of the other writers.

Tim 56:46

I didn't hear it.

Cameron 56:50

Yeah, which is unfortunate. um But yeah, ah his Julian's response to being journalistically investigated is he buys the newspaper Caitlin works for and makes her head editor so she can't be writing articles anymore.

Jala 57:04

Except that she doesn't listen to him and goes on the beat all the time.

Cameron 57:06

No. Oh yeah, the rest of the show is still that.

Jala 57:08

And like, I don't, I don't, I don't know that she actually does any editing work, but she sure does a lot of reporting.

Cameron 57:14

I don't know when she'd find the time.

Tim 57:17

No, and that does feel like a very TTRPG like solution.

Cameron 57:17

Yeah. ah

Tim 57:20

Like, Hey, can I roll to see if I can buy the San Francisco times?

Jala 57:24

Right. He rolled a natural 20 or whatever.

Tim 57:25

Wow. Yeah. Oh, you passed. I guess you do now.

Cameron 57:29

Yeah.

Jala 57:30

I say a natural 20.

Cameron 57:30

I mean, look.

Jala 57:31

White Wolf is not a D20 system, but anyway.

Cameron 57:33

No. D100, isn't it?

Tim 57:35

Dice pools, yeah.

Cameron 57:36

Well, I mean, you know, I'm a Ventrue. I'm a banker. I've got the political capital to just purchase a major newspaper whenever I want.

Tim 57:39

Yeah. Yeah, no problem.

Jala 57:45

There's nobody else that works at the newspaper until this one episode, like way later where you see like three other people.

Cameron 57:53

Mmm. It's pretty quiet.

Jala 57:55

So, yup. Nope. Right, so do we have anything else about this second episode? Like, I've liked this one a lot because of Eddie.

Cameron 58:06

That jawline. My god.

Jala 58:08

Well, it's more like I like him being like this, this kind of, um like, because you can, you he gets across this character as being, you know, like he's trying to be cunning, but you know that he's not quite on par to do the kind of stuff he needs to do to really become the next prince. So you're just kind of interested and like you don't necessarily like Eddie, but at the same time, you're interested in seeing what happens with him because you know that he's going to get fucked up.

Cameron 58:30

Yeah. Hmm. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Tim 58:39

Yes.

Cameron 58:40

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion is it'll take a few episodes to get there, but you know, something interesting is going to happen.

Tim 58:41

Yes. He's so confident that he's going to get this done, and he plays it so well as being, I can just brute force it, right?

Jala 58:47

Right.

Cameron 58:52

Yeah.

Tim 58:54

I can just like, yeah, I'll just do it.

Cameron 58:54

Yeah. This works for everything else I've ever done.

Tim 58:56

And then, yeah.

Jala 58:56

I'll punch away my problems. It's very much better then.

Tim 59:00

Pretty much.

Jala 59:02

Yeah, so moving right along. How about the third episode, Tim? Tell us about Romeo and Juliet.

Tim 59:06

Yes. Oh boy, so this is, I think it's, does it happen at the end of the last, I think it does happen in this one with the introduction of Sasha, who is played by, I can't remember the actress's name, but basically she's, ends up kind of, it's a human, younger descendant of Julian Luna's family, um who comes to some kind of gathering, I can't remember what it was, basically,

Jala 59:34

It was the funeral for Sasha's grandfather, but it was Julian's last living son or grandchild, one of those.

Tim 59:36

and Right, yeah, Emperor grandfather, yes. Well, yeah, I remember that, yes. Yes.

Cameron 59:46

Yeah.

Tim 59:47

And he just happens to be...

Cameron 59:49

Yeah.

Tim 59:50

Yes, he just, he just aged very well. And she, she you know, barges into the ceremony and grabs a bottle of the famous Julian Luna family wine. and takes a drink and you hear gasps of the elderly family.

Cameron 1:00:06

Yeah.

Tim 1:00:08

Oh, she's horrible.

Cameron 1:00:08

Well, well because she's going grandpa could get it.

Tim 1:00:08

Oh, my gosh. With that, yes.

Jala 1:00:13

Yeah, well, she drives up on a motorcycle in her biker leather, barges in and is like, Oh, all of you leeches and terrible people.

Tim 1:00:15

Oh, yeah.

Jala 1:00:24

None of you gave a damn about me. And she gets the bottle of wine and takes a big old swig of like this very expensive vintage that was like the last vintage, you know, from the special stock or something like that. And she just, and then she turns to the coffin and it's an open coffin.

Cameron 1:00:36

Yeah.

Jala 1:00:42

yeah ceremony or whatever and she's like well grandpa you know and then she just picks him up and gives him a big old kiss this this corpse that's there and then she's like well if he were alive today I'd do him you know it's just like what is going on

Tim 1:00:58

Yeah! Ooh!

Jala 1:01:01

So and then everybody is like scandalized and instead of like confronting her they all just leave and then Julian talks to her and basically says you need to come live with me at my house.

Cameron 1:01:08

Yeah. Yeah.

Tim 1:01:15

So yes, he invites. And then at that point, I think he kind of just happens to say, hey, Cash, ah do your job, which Cash proceeds to not do very well as he does every single time.

Cameron 1:01:26

No, yeah.

Tim 1:01:27

That's a theme throughout the show. um And decides to just fall in love with with Sasha. So they become, because he has a you know really awesome bike

Cameron 1:01:33

Yeah.

Tim 1:01:37

He's a biker dude, because he's the gang girl, and that's what the show says they are.

Cameron 1:01:38

Hmm. Yeah, they're bikers.

Tim 1:01:42

And so they hit it off, yes. They hit it off. And as she kind of starts to get really involved with stuff, I think there's some parts in this episode where other things are happening with the Brujah and other things, and she happens to accidentally see something. And um and because of that, Julian grudgingly gives permission for Cash to embrace Sasha. Um, to bring her into the gang grill, but Eddie is not really, you know, into that idea.

And he sees an opportunity to, um, to call some, to stir, stir the shit a little bit. And so, yeah.

Cameron 1:02:18

Yeah.

Jala 1:02:19

Right, because the way to get to Julian is through his human family.

Tim 1:02:23

Yeah.

Jala 1:02:24

Julian asked Sasha to come live with him because he wanted to watch over her because she was basically the last, the last, last descendant, you know, like the last, last person in the line of his family that he and his human wife back when he was a human had formed. So, you know, he's got a soft spot for her for that reason, even though she's all trouble.

Cameron 1:02:42

Yeah.

Jala 1:02:47

And I think that actually happens at like the end of the second episode that she ends up coming um because like she's checking out cash and then ah Julian's like, not for you.

Tim 1:02:51

I think so.

Jala 1:02:58

you know And then like the next episode is all about, you know, like the two of them just not staying away from each other. And then, you know, Julian getting mad at Sasha and Sasha going, why can't I get any, you know,

Cameron 1:03:06

Yeah. Yeah, you're clearly drowning in it, Uncle Julian.

Jala 1:03:16

Right.

Tim 1:03:18

and this howls with Lily in Archon and all that fun stuff.

Cameron 1:03:24

Yeah, don't get started on Archon.

Tim 1:03:28

So yeah, then the Brujah, they do embrace her.

Cameron 1:03:29

Yeah.

Tim 1:03:33

She isn't long for the living world and she's taken into the Masquerade, the Kindred life.

Jala 1:03:47

The thing about this though, is that, um, Sasha and Cash, they're kind of into each other and then Cash because of Julian's pressuring says, I can't be with you, Sasha. It's just, it's not for one. She's like, why? And he's like, it's, it's not for me. I just, I can't, I can't be with you. And then she just gets mad and storms off. And then because she's mad at Cash, she decided she's going to go dance with some other guys in the club, which happened to be Bruja, and she leaves with them.

And then they, under Eddie's orders, end up embracing her into the Bruja clan just to fuck with Julian. And so Cash is a little bit too late.

Tim 1:04:31

Yeah. So it's a classic case of Cash.

Cameron 1:04:33

Pretty much.

Tim 1:04:35

He's an interesting character. I like to rag on him camping out on Cash for a second. he it he he definitely um The actor does well.

Cameron 1:04:39

yes

Tim 1:04:44

Channon Roe, I think his name is.

Jala 1:04:46

Yeah, Channon Roe.

Tim 1:04:47

He does well. um He's a you know little of a smaller guy. um He doesn't come off as intimidating, so it was interesting. casting him as the enforcer, the sheriff for Julian. Um, but he, he just kind of, for the most part, he kind of just flares his nostrils and just kind of has the snarl on his face all the time.

Jala 1:05:06

He sets his jaw yeah a certain way.

Tim 1:05:06

And then proceeds, yes, that's his jaw. And then proceeds to neither be, kind of always seems to make the wrong decision. He's, he's earnest and he's trying to do the right thing, but he always seems to kind of just make the wrong choice at the wrong time to just make things worse.

Cameron 1:05:19

Yeah.

Tim 1:05:22

And but you still love him despite all of his ineptitude.

Cameron 1:05:27

Yeah.

Tim 1:05:28

At least I do. Yeah.

Cameron 1:05:29

I do like Cash. His character is... sort of just completely in incompetent through none of his own fault. Like it's the vagaries of fate that just nothing ever goes right for him.

Tim 1:05:41

Yeah.

Cameron 1:05:43

Like he's clearly competent to a point. He's the leader of the clan in San Francisco. He's got, you know, like loyalty and respect and all these things, but anytime he's on screen, he fucks something up.

Jala 1:05:56

Well, it's kind of like the Star Trek next generation issue with wharf, the Worf Effect, because Worf is, you know, supposed to be the Chief of Security Worf.

Cameron 1:06:00

Oh, the Worf Effect, yeah.

Tim 1:06:01

Oh, yes. Oh, boy, yes.

Jala 1:06:07

He's supposed to be this super awesome badass warrior and like fail, fail, fail.

Tim 1:06:14

You have to show how tough the bad guys are, how, how you know, yes.

Cameron 1:06:14

Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:06:19

Right. And that's, that I feel is like, I think the cash ended up falling into that trap of, you know, the, the Worf Effect, because that was sometime, I don't know exactly when that show was airing, but like, it was still on TV around this time.

Cameron 1:06:19

Ah, good old Worf.

Jala 1:06:33

So it was still in the, you know, mental, uh, you know, brain cloud of everybody who's, who's, uh, watching the show.

Tim 1:06:36

A little bit.

Cameron 1:06:38

Yeah.

Tim 1:06:39

That's a great time for an episode.

Cameron 1:06:42

Yeah, absolutely.

Jala 1:06:42

ah So, so yeah, then the next episode that we have after that, Live Hard, Die Young and Leave a Good Looking Corpse.

Cameron 1:06:51

God.

Tim 1:06:52

wow

Cameron 1:06:52

It's a great title.

Jala 1:06:56

Yeah, so ah in this one, this is the one I mentioned earlier that is Lily centric. This is the one that's all about Toreadors.

Cameron 1:07:02

Yeah.

Jala 1:07:03

So Zane, who's played by Ivan Sergei, is a rock star that was embraced by a Lily, and he endangers the Masquerade, but she's having trouble admitting that he's a problem. Sasha ends up embracing her bruja blood. So that's the couple of lines they have in this summary here. So At the beginning of the episode, we get um Lily and she's doing her thing and then you see Zane and he's being a rock star guy.

Cameron 1:07:20

Yeah.

Jala 1:07:27

You find out he's a vampire. um He ends up ah just like off the bat embracing some of the groupies that are around, you know following him around and everything. It doesn't explain anything, just embraces them and then leaves them. And so this becomes a big problem.

Cameron 1:07:43

Yep.

Jala 1:07:45

And this it comes to the attention of Cash and Julian. And Cash is upset because ah Zane is actually a friend of his. So, you know, he's upset for that reason. This is a friend of his, a buddy of his that now, you know, has this situation. And Julian, of course, is like, I've got to talk to Lily because Lily embraced this kid. And this is, you know, he is of the Toreador clan.

Cameron 1:08:06

Yeah.

Jala 1:08:09

So this is a Lily problem, you know.

Tim 1:08:09

Mm hmm.

Jala 1:08:13

So he comes to Lily and tells Lily, look, you've got to do something about him. You've got to stop him doing what he's doing. And so she tries to talk to Zane and ah Zane is also like this, this young vampire who's a rock star is also one of Lily's lovers because Julian and Lily, like I mentioned before, they take other lovers, that kind of thing. But he's like, you know, she's trying to talk to him and he's just like getting all over her. And then, you know, finally when she like pushes him about it, he's like, look, I'm just giving them freedom. Just like you gave to me, I'm making them better. This is good for them and everything. And you're like, you end up following one of the groupies where she's, you know, wakes up and she's confused and cold and doesn't know what's happening. And she is like having these situations where she's around humans and the Masquerade is definitely broken at this point because people are like, what's going on?

Tim 1:09:12

Oh yeah, completely.

Cameron 1:09:14

Oh, yeah.

Jala 1:09:16

And then like her father is coming to the club looking for her because you know she won't come home and all this other mess. And you know she's she ends up at one point, she was in the hospital and then she just like wakes up and then you know, runs out and falls out, like jumps out of a window, I think onto a car and then just her, her, she looks dead and then she just wakes back up again and then runs off.

So, you know, and this is something that Frank is investigating because Frank is the one cop other than Sunny that is in all of San Francisco.

Cameron 1:09:41

Yeah.

Jala 1:09:51

And, um, Caitlin Byrne is there of course, because she's definitely a head editor and not a reporter.

Cameron 1:09:57

Yep. She's very hands on, you know?

Jala 1:09:59

But yeah, she's editing that stuff real good, guys. But yeah, and then um so Zane is not listening to Lily. And so Julian tells Lily, look, if he's not listening to you, you need to kill him. He needs to die because he is endangering the Masquerade.

Cameron 1:10:18

Yeah.

Jala 1:10:20

So ah he says, look, I'll send Cash to do it. or data lists or something. And then Lily's like, no, I will do it myself. And then she ends up facing Zane and then having to take him down and kill him at the end.

Tim 1:10:35

Yes. Very, very gory discretion shot where she uses her finger to, and he just pulls his neck to the side like, okay, sure. And I think the idea is that she like cuts his head off or something, but it's just very like, okay, it's that easy.

Jala 1:10:50

Right.

Cameron 1:10:50

Yes, I bought super strong.

Jala 1:10:52

Well, they all have magic fingers in here.

Tim 1:10:54

Yes.

Jala 1:10:54

It's, it's definitely like, uh, if you all have seen Johnny Mnemonic, it's like that, that, um, character from that that has like the, the laser thumb or whatever.

Tim 1:10:59

Oh, yeah.

Cameron 1:11:03

Yeah, very much.

Jala 1:11:06

Yeah. And then also meanwhile, the subplot in here, because there's always stuff going on with cash and Sasha. ah So, um, cash is like, I want to be with you. Cause at the end of the episode where she was a Bruja, um, you know, cash is like, we're going to end up hating each other because you know, you won't be able to help it because you're Bruja and I'm gang rolling. We're, we're terrible, you know,

Tim 1:11:26

for reasons.

Jala 1:11:27

Yeah, for reasons that you don't understand and I'm just going to throw nouns at you.

Cameron 1:11:28

Yeah.

Jala 1:11:31

And then she's like, but I love you now.

Cameron 1:11:31

yeah

Jala 1:11:33

And he's like, we can't do it. And so like in here, um, she is feeling spurned by him and feeling upset. It's like basically the wake of a bad breakup. And so she ends up just hanging with the brew Han things like that, um, in this episode.

Tim 1:11:50

There's a little bit of that where she kind of falls in with Zane and it's like Zane's cool. Zane who's even though it's the 90s is very much seems like to me styled after like a Jim Morrison kind of sort of set 60s 70s rock star um who just his way of showing these are rock stars just by saying rock and roll out loud in a full room of people yes exactly so it's a very it's very 90s soap opera version of rock and roll but he definitely sways her to his side for a while

Jala 1:12:01

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and having an earring and in the hair. Yeah. So moving right along, how about we get into episode number five, The Rise and Fall of Eddie Fiore. This is a fun one, Cameron, tell us about it.

Cameron 1:12:32

Yeah, it is really fun because, uh, this is when all the stuff with the Brujah sort of comes to a head. Uh, you know, it's been up and down throughout the season. It started very strong with them being very antagonistic right off the bat. Uh, but you know, it's simmered down for a bit now it's going to sort of pull back in. Uh, Lily is getting very jealous of, uh, Caitlin and Julian's burgeoning relationship.

And so does the most Masquerade and danger thing possible, which is hire a private investigator to stalk Julian and take photos of him.

Jala 1:13:05

Yes. Yeah.

Cameron 1:13:10

Yeah, um meanwhile, the Brujah are acting really, really like the mob because Eddie's sire did the dawn of another city has come to town to help him with his hostile takeover and has brought a shapeshifting assassin with him.

Jala 1:13:23

yeah Yep. The Assamite.

Cameron 1:13:30

That was it. Thank you. And so, ah you know, ah as Mike goes after Julian, as he's at Caitlin's house, and the PI just gets a bunch of photos of Julian knifing a guy to death, apparently, and then the body disappears because, you know, that's Mike wasn't staked or burned or whatever.

Jala 1:13:46

Yep.

Cameron 1:13:52

So, you know, they get away for later. um Frank gets the copies of these photos, shows them to Caitlin, so that puts ah her and Julian's relationship on the rocks. Meanwhile, Lily is really going all in on this. Eddie will figure Julian out business. Eddie's going, we're going to kill Julian. Lily is either fooling on this or deep down going, well, you know, maybe this will shake him out of it. um And, uh, the, the only other thing of note, uh, which I believe Tim has put in here, which is, uh, this is the most, uh, stuck in my head moment of the entire series is Daedalus's tongue fully out while he screams like the most bizarre yell ever.

Jala 1:14:28

Yeah. Well, the yell, they do something where they like, they slow it down and make it deeper. And like, they do some weird effects on his voice to make it go like, and it's like this weird, weird sound.

Cameron 1:14:40

Yeah.

Tim 1:14:43

It's such a strange, yeah, like baffling decision.

Jala 1:14:47

Well, here's the other thing that's notable about this episode that you didn't mention, which is the fact that Lily.

Tim 1:14:48

Wonderful.

Jala 1:14:55

Uh, so, so Eddie tries to kill Julian and Lily was down with Eddie trying to overthrow Julian, but didn't want Julian to die. And she ends up like. deciding that she actually loves Julian after all because of some stuff that happens in the episode and so like she comes to Julian's aid and when Eddie is standing there she pulls like this katana off the side of of like some display that's sitting right there and then slices his head off so

Cameron 1:15:27

Yeah. Oh, Eddie, Eddie, Eddie does not last beyond this episode.

Jala 1:15:32

No, it's sad. I don't remember exactly which episode earlier in. It might have been episode three, the one where Sasha is embraced, but Julian gets so mad at Eddie that he takes Eddie and throws him out.

Tim 1:15:48

Oh, yeah.

Jala 1:15:48

It like has him dragged out into beat up and then dragged out into the desert. and like as the sun is rising and so Eddie is like curled up and trying to cover himself with his clothes and then Julian drives up and then he pops the trunk and has Eddie climb into the back of the trunk and close the trunk and like if what a what a power move is that to have you know and he says like you're only alive because I allow it you know like that was that was a real cool scene for sure

Cameron 1:15:53

yeah yeah so good yeah yeah

Tim 1:16:10

Yes.

Cameron 1:16:19

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and you know, this is the, this is the best part of the show to me is the politicking, all the, all the vampire mob politics stuff that's going on.

Jala 1:16:26

Yeah.

Cameron 1:16:29

And I'm pretty sure this is, uh, the episode that sort of consolidates that because with, uh, part of this is cause the Assamite pretends to be Julian. Uh, so Eddie shoots and kills the Assamite before he's killed himself. Um, and, uh, the, the Brujah still sort of on the war path. And we end up with a big like subway tunnel confrontation between them and the other clans until the Nosferatu show up and solve everything by screaming.

Jala 1:16:58

Yeah. Well, they, they come out and like, you know, it's, it's basically, uh, the clans are evenly matched. There's two clans versus two clans or something like that.

Cameron 1:17:04

Hmm. Yeah.

Jala 1:17:08

And then the Nosferatu are the tiebreakers who are like, Nope, we're on Julian's side.

Cameron 1:17:11

Hmm.

Jala 1:17:13

And then the Brujah are like, Oh fuck, we're, we're leaving now. So.

Cameron 1:17:17

Yeah, yeah. Uh, this is important to remember because immediately after this, we'll come up with the Nosferatu feeling politically powerless for some reason, despite literally being the center of political power in the entire series, one episode prior.

Jala 1:17:32

Yep. Absolutely. In these last two episodes here, and then like we'll circle the very, very last one that we'll talk about is that unaired episode, which I think is actually not as bad as these last two that we're about to to cover.

Cameron 1:17:42

No. no

Jala 1:17:47

um So ah we'll get there. But like these last two, a Bad Moon Rising and Cabin in the Woods, are like wackadoo. They're real wackadoo.

Tim 1:17:55

Yeah, feels like they just start trying to turn the turn the volume up on the craziness just to kind of get yeah get things going.

Jala 1:17:55

And I wasn't really a big fan of the Rise and Fall of Eddie Fiore episode either. like There's a lot of stuff that goes on, but I'm like, this doesn't make any sense it feels like somebody who doesn't know yeah right right right so Tim tell us about Bad Moon Rising the one with Goth.

Tim 1:18:19

Oh, yes, the most subtle name ever.

Cameron 1:18:21

Ah, Goth.

Tim 1:18:24

um So, yes, with Brujah leader, Eddie, if you're losing his head, a little off the top there, ah fights or it's just chaos in the city. and The Brujah are trying to fight for power, fill that vacuum, um which is to be expected.

Cameron 1:18:35

Hmm.

Tim 1:18:42

And like you said, Nosferatu playing a really big part in the in the last episode. um What isn't expected is the return of the Nosferatu named Goth. That's his name, G-O-T-H, um who is has a history ah with Daedalus and Julian. ah Julian ran Goth out of town years ago because he was just two too monstrous, too evil, um too dangerous.

Cameron 1:19:08

Too dangerous. Yeah.

Tim 1:19:10

You couldn't control him. He comes back and there's a kind of a subplot that he has other Nosferatu that follow him that all kind of are you know angry about being kept you know they're forced to hide the Masquerade is keeping them holding them back this this damn Julian yeah like they can't just turn those tides of battles no so it's a

Cameron 1:19:26

Yeah. Yeah. They don't have any political power.

Jala 1:19:31

And they definitely don't have any sway.

Cameron 1:19:33

We don't have any influence. Yeah.

Jala 1:19:36

Yeah. no Well, the whole thing here is that, like, Goth wants to bring back these ancient rites that the Nosferatu, like, we've never heard about these before, but the Nosferatu had some ancient rites that they would use and um in doing the sacrifices of the human babies, which we'll get to that in a minute.

Cameron 1:19:48

No.

Jala 1:19:58

When they do this, the sacrifice every full moon or whatever, then that it gives them this monstrous savage power and they look even creepier than normal. So, you know, like these Nosferatu are legitimately creepy. They're not just bald. So, and, um, yeah, they could, they could, but I mean, like for their budget, this was a lot.

Cameron 1:20:15

That could be more monstrous. Oh, for their budget, this is a lot, yeah.

Jala 1:20:21

They had some prosthetics. They had actual prosthetics going on here. So, so yeah.

Tim 1:20:27

So it involved a fun whole plot about, yes, and again, once again, in the middle of daylight in ah in a very bright open park in, quote, San Francisco. and The Nosferatu Goth just happens to just walk up to a young ah single mother with her baby sitting on a blanket and then it's nice that Alexine just yoink, grabs the baby. The mom's just turned ah turned away for a second.

Cameron 1:20:53

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:20:53

Yeah, she went back to the car to go get a bottle or something and left the baby in a basket on the blanket. And then all of a sudden, Uncle Fester comes out and digs the baby.

Cameron 1:21:01

Yep.

Tim 1:21:03

yep doesn't really do a very good job of like not being seen but oh yeah because he just happened to know this mother and this baby would just be hanging out in the park oh perfect this is what I'm looking for

Jala 1:21:03

It's like...

Cameron 1:21:04

It's such an Uncle Fester silhouette. Yeah.

Jala 1:21:07

it is It is definitely an Uncle Fester silhouette, but it's like all I could think about at that point, and I actually made an image to this effect and posted it. It's like, um, Goth is just looking for his picnic basket.

Cameron 1:21:27

Yeah, perfect.

Jala 1:21:28

Well, and then they also have this other subplot that's going on. That's actually super pivotal to like how the resolution comes about where um you hear all about like, okay, so this single mother, she was, she's a young mother. She's like a teenager and everybody told her when she accidentally got pregnant that she should get rid of her kid, but I wasn't going to do that. And this, that, and the other. And it's a very pro life pro life kind of thing going on there.

Cameron 1:21:52

Yeah. Hmm.

Tim 1:21:55

There's some after school special energy kind of going on in this episode.

Jala 1:21:59

And I was just like, oh, wow, this this episode, I mean, like I never was a big fan of this particular episode, but like it hits even weirder at this point in time with the politics in America and the you know body autonomy rights issues and things.

Cameron 1:22:07

Yeah. Yeah.

Jala 1:22:14

So, um but anyway, so she just keeps on going on about this thing. And Caitlin Byrne, the newspaper reporter that Julian is in love with, ends up interviewing her and trying to talk to her and feeling bad for her because she sees herself in this girl. In a lot of ways, you find out that Caitlin had gotten pregnant and she didn't have an abortion, but she did have the baby and then give it up for adoption. And so like she's having big guilty feels and she really is invested in this.

Cameron 1:22:39

Yeah.

Jala 1:22:43

and She's out there trying to find this baby and ends up, ends up, um, actually talking to Lily and Lily and sources her and sends her out into the park hoping that the Nosferatu will kill her. You know, and then that would solve the problem of Julian being in love with her, right?

Cameron 1:23:01

Yeah.

Jala 1:23:02

And um so, yeah, so Caitlin has this idea when she wakes up, oh, I know where the baby is.

Cameron 1:23:02

Oh, absolutely.

Tim 1:23:03

He'll never find out.

Jala 1:23:09

I'm going to go find the baby. And then she goes to the park and then she ends up coming across the Nosferatu Camilla, who is like the right hand, you know, person of Goth.

Cameron 1:23:20

Yeah.

Jala 1:23:21

And um so Camilla also was a mother for some amount of time. And so then Caitlin, when she's sobbing and crying and telling Camilla her life story, Camilla then feels compassion and is like, I can't kill this baby. You know, it all this other mess.

Tim 1:23:39

Yeah.

Cameron 1:23:39

Yeah, let's kill Julian instead.

Tim 1:23:41

And Julian says, yeah and there's a scene where there's the whole idea is that Julian's going to challenge Goth.

Jala 1:23:42

ah

Cameron 1:23:47

Hmm.

Tim 1:23:49

That's right. he but He partakes in some of Daedalus's blood, I believe.

Jala 1:23:53

Yeah, he doesn't know that he's partaking of Daedalus's blood.

Tim 1:23:54

That's true.

Jala 1:23:56

Daedalus slipped it into the blood that, you know, Julian was going to drink or wine or whatever that was.

Tim 1:23:57

Yes. A white blood. Yeah. Red wine.

Jala 1:24:03

and Right, right. But um so then Julian drinks it, you know, when Daedalus is trying to convince him, let me go and fight Goth. And Julian's like, no, I have to do this. And so then Daedalus slips in some of his blood, which helps power up Julian to give him Nosferatu claws. But he doesn't lose his hair.

Tim 1:24:25

All the powers, all the all the pros, but none of the horrible, terrible, you know.

Cameron 1:24:29

Ah, they knew the ratings would drop.

Jala 1:24:30

Yeah.

Tim 1:24:31

I mean, where are we?

Cameron 1:24:32

If they played if they made Mark Frankel wear a bald cap.

Tim 1:24:32

Yes.

Jala 1:24:35

Yeah, no, no go, no go.

Tim 1:24:39

And then there's a scene, i I remember this, there's a scene where they, when they're having the big standoff, Julian and Goth and this kind of little circle, um there's a, ah yes oh no, not in the middle of this very public park.

Jala 1:24:43

Yeah. Of stones that they just put there, nobody thinks that's suspicious.

Cameron 1:24:49

Yeah, a fairy ring.

Tim 1:24:52

um there's a there's a scene where there's a knife and it's the most kind of like mall store knife with a little kind of text at the bottom of the brand you know Made in China kind of sort of at the bottom and it's like perfect yes it's great it's wonderful again one of those things that like this it shouldn't have been seen in this high definition but here it is yes can't yes he does yeah

Jala 1:24:59

Yes.

Cameron 1:25:01

Yep. Yep. yeah yeah

Jala 1:25:12

Yep. Absolutely. And so at the end of the episode, he ends up, um, do it. Doesn't he end up killing goth at this point? Like office is killed.

Cameron 1:25:20

Yeah.

Jala 1:25:21

And then all the other notes for ought to just kind of like disperse after that.

Tim 1:25:25

Oh, never mind. This is too hard.

Cameron 1:25:28

One bad Apple, et cetera, et cetera.

Jala 1:25:31

Yep, and then the mother gets the baby back and then at the end of that, I think Caitlin's memory gets wiped because like she can't remember about the Nosferatu and all of that mess.

Tim 1:25:42

You can't have that.

Jala 1:25:42

so Because if she did, she would endanger the Masquerade. So yeah, so that's how that one ends. And the last official episode that was aired, boy is this one. This is the, this is a fun one in which Cameron has his own little, ah um, you know, debut into vampire history.

Cameron 1:26:02

Yeah, yeah, I don't know why they put me in this TV show.

Jala 1:26:03

So right.

Cameron 1:26:06

I'm not particularly appreciative of it. Just having a character who keeps walking around going, I'm Cameron, and I'm like, please kill me.

Jala 1:26:16

It was so funny because I forgot this guy's name was Cameron until I was like, oh my God, Cameron.

Cameron 1:26:23

Well, they wanted to make sure the audience didn't forget because he says it like five times in one episode.

Jala 1:26:28

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So in this episode, Cabin in the Woods, Julian hasn't been out of San Francisco in the last seven years, and Caitlin decides to ask him to go away with her for the weekend. And this is like the big if you don't go with me, then I'm going to break up with you kind of like you need to come with me and spend time with me saying. And um so he ends up going out of town and leaves Archon in charge.

Cameron 1:26:49

Yeah.

Jala 1:26:57

So he goes without cash, without a bodyguard or anything to Manzanita Springs in Sonoma County, which is where Caitlin has secured a secluded cabin in the woods.

Cameron 1:27:00

Yep.

Jala 1:27:07

And this is right next to the place where like Julian's family had their winery. And so she's trying to do this very thoughtful gift of, I'm going to take you back to this place that your family has this whole history with and this, that, and the other. I'm trying to get to know you better. That's what she's trying to do. And meanwhile, he's just on edge the entire time.

Cameron 1:27:30

Yeah.

Jala 1:27:32

So ah what you end up finding out in this episode is that Archon, who we haven't mentioned once in any of these episodes because the only thing Archon does is sit in chair or maybe walk in on Julian when he's having sex and then says, Julian, the Masquerade is being endangered. And he wears a Mr. Rogers sweater. And that's about it.

Tim 1:27:53

yeah very much.

Cameron 1:27:53

Yes, he's the homeliest old British vampire.

Jala 1:27:54

Like, that's all he does. Right. and He's just in a Mr. Rogers sweater and he is just like Julian's advisor. and so He's just kind of there in the background, you know in the house. I don't think he ever leaves the house.

Tim 1:28:11

No, absolutely not.

Jala 1:28:12

He's only in the house. That's the only place he exists. So you find out that back when Archon was the Prince of the City, which was before Julian came along, Archon was actually this super ruthless killer, which gives me like ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny vibes.

Cameron 1:28:22

Hmm.

Jala 1:28:32

You know, who comes out on top of the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny?

Cameron 1:28:32

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:28:37

Mr. Rogers in a bloodstained sweater.

Tim 1:28:38

Oh, you know that right.

Cameron 1:28:39

Yeah.

Tim 1:28:41

It's red, dyed in blood.

Jala 1:28:43

Right. So anyway, Archon used to be like this super bloody prince who was like super merciless and basically what Lily wants Julian to be like.

Cameron 1:28:55

Yeah.

Jala 1:28:55

And he when Julian comes along, Julian becomes Archon's enforcer. So he's the one doing what Daedalus does for Julian. And he's the one who kills anybody that Archon says needs to die. And so he is told at this point, this is in the past, this is a whole big flashback we get. that the Brujah clan had, you know, like some something that they did was endangering the Masquerade and they broke the law and they needed to die. And Julian is very much about the law. So he wants to go. And he feels like this killing is justified. And he basically wipes out the entire Brujah clan at this point. And the few of them that are sort of you know survivors of this end up fleeing the city. And then they go off to Manzanita Springs. So that's where that comes back in.

uh what you didn't know until like later on in the episode is that archon lied to Julian it was a personal vendetta he just didn't like the bruja and so he had a vendetta against the leader of the bruja at that time and just had Julian go take care of business for him for that reason so he feels bad because Julian ends up in ah a pinch of a situation where he is his life is threatened and you know he's like on the brink of dying a second time when you know like all this stuff comes to light.

so um Back in Manzanita Springs, Caitlin and Julian are enjoying their time until they're not. And there are Bruja vampires, many of whom look like you know um they've been super deformed by the different stuff that Julian was doing to get rid of everybody. like They have like burned off parts, bald parts, you know misshapen bits.

Cameron 1:30:40

Mmm. Yeah.

Tim 1:30:44

and This is the episode where Julian is is given the name.

Jala 1:30:47

and

Tim 1:30:49

You learn that his name amongst the Brujah is the Gun of the Ventrue, I think, is what they call him. Yes, which is like, wow, they didn't use that before.

Cameron 1:30:55

The sick title.

Tim 1:30:57

Yeah, it's like, dang.

Cameron 1:30:57

Yeah.

Jala 1:30:59

What happened to you, Julian?

Tim 1:31:02

Uh oh, he has a gun now. He's the most dangerous Ventrue with a gun. It's like, dan but yeah, and none of this was in the show before. Dang.

Jala 1:31:08

I know, right?

Tim 1:31:08

He softened so much.

Jala 1:31:10

Well, especially with how soft hearted he is, it's like, you know, I don't know.

Tim 1:31:12

Yeah, pardon me.

Jala 1:31:14

This is this is kind of a hard pitch to me.

Tim 1:31:17

Yeah.

Jala 1:31:17

But um yeah, so all of the miscreants that are out in the woods, they decide they're going to go attack Julian, ah who is there somehow ah in their midst and they're going to just kill him. And they also send their one little emissary, who is a guy named Cameron.

Cameron 1:31:30

Yeah. Yep.

Jala 1:31:36

from the Brujah clan in a suit to go to San Francisco and to become the new Bruja primogen there.

Tim 1:31:48

played by a very young Titus Welliver, who if anybody's watched it, or seen the ads for it everywhere, the show Bosch on Amazon Prime, he plays that character. So easy's he's kind of come, you know, but he was played played the man in black in Lost, spoiler alerts for that and for that show. ah But yeah, it kind of was just weird seeing him as a very, very fresh faced young actor. who, yeah, like you said, he says his name a lot, his own name a lot. He's got a chip on his shoulder, Cameron, Cameron, Cameron.

Cameron 1:32:16

Yeah.

Tim 1:32:20

But yeah, it's is it was fun seeing, it would have been interesting to see how his character could have taken a chance to grow and become, try to fill the shoes of Eddie Fiore.

Jala 1:32:30

Right, because one of his first stops when he comes to San Francisco is to see Lily. And he's kind of flirting back and forth with her. And he's just like, you know, yeah, I'm better than Eddie was. He made mistakes. I'm not going to make those mistakes. I know what I'm doing. And, you know, I'm the new Brujah primogen and you know I'm interested to see if I can go toe to toe with you. And you know if I'm the prince of the city, you know the reason Eddie wanted to be prince of the city is so that he could have you, because whoever is prince of the city is going to be you know your lover.

And so they're having this whole back and forth kind of thing. And Lilly's like, I think that you would be biting off more than you could chew, child. And he's like, but I'm going to find out, is so his whole thing. Because he's stepping in to take over where Brian Thompson had. So meanwhile, while all that's happening back in the city, and we also have Archon knowing that danger is coming and that the Brujah are on their way, ah he's trying to stop the Brujah massacre you know of other people.

um put a pin in that, we'll get back to Archon. Back in Manzanita Springs, Julian is attacked by these Bruja and Caitlin is also there and she's also threatened. Julian goes kind of feral when Caitlin is threatened.

Cameron 1:33:57

Yeah.

Jala 1:33:58

um He ends up getting really badly wounded and then like the Brujah end up running off. Why was it that the Brujah ran off was it because they didn't want to.

Tim 1:34:10

I think the one guy

Jala 1:34:10

Is it because that one guy died. He killed one.

Tim 1:34:13

he went yeah he's just like He's like, I need to feed.

Cameron 1:34:13

Yeah.

Tim 1:34:15

Oops. And he just dies. And it's like, oh, OK.

Jala 1:34:20

Yeah.

Cameron 1:34:20

Yeah, it's a little over the place.

Tim 1:34:23

And then I think that's yeah that's pretty much the end of that little spat.

Jala 1:34:26

Well, but like I think Julian killed off the leader of the Bruja that were coming to attack.

Tim 1:34:31

That might be right, yeah.

Jala 1:34:33

And then the rest of them ran off after that. And Caitlin's like, what's going on? Oh my God. And then she's trying to like nurse Julian back to health because he just like passes out and all of that. And then you know while he's got a fever and he's having what up all these different problems, she's terrified. She doesn't know what's going on. And Julian tells her all the information about I'm a vampire and this is that and I need the blood. And you know and he's also having his own throws of drama because he is definitely fainting on his she lounge and saying, you could never accept me as a monster.

And then Caitlin's like, but I love you. It's fine. Just explain to me what's happening. What can I do? you know And she's fine, but he's like, you will never accept me. you know This is whole back and forth. But anyway, he gets some blood from Caitlin and he ends up living and recovering. He wipes her memory so that she does not remember what happens or she he tries to wipe her memory.

Tim 1:35:28

Again.

Jala 1:35:33

But then she wakes up in the car when he's driving her back home. And she's like, I had this weird dream. And he's like, oh, yeah, tell me about it. And you know, all this other mess. But she's she thinks it's a dream, but it's really all the stuff that happened, you know.

Cameron 1:35:48

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:35:50

and back in San Francisco to wrap up the last little bit here. So ah Cameron and the other Brujah are coming for vengeance to Julian's house. And Archon steps out and offers himself up and says, Julian was innocent. He had no idea. I told him that you know that he needed to kill the Brujah clan and he thought he was doing the right thing. Actually, it was me. I had a vendetta, and so ah he ends up getting killed, and then he falls back into like this pool of water.

Cameron 1:36:22

ah fountain yeah well I mean he's a vampire doesn't have that much going around yeah oh yeah yeah

Jala 1:36:23

Yeah, this pool of water, this fountain that's there, and you know you get like maybe a slight discoloration of the water. like They didn't even really do too much blood there either.

Tim 1:36:33

No.

Jala 1:36:35

Yeah, you ain't got no much but blood.

Tim 1:36:37

True. There's the total Christ pose, arms out. Yeah, very slow motion. Swelling music.

Jala 1:36:47

Yep. Yep. And then that is the end of the series proper. Uh, there is finally that one night stalker episode. So Tim, I will kick to you to talk about night stalker, the unaired episode featuring Daedalus being a creeper.

Tim 1:36:59

Oh boy. So this is an episode, and I actually, I don't think I, I think I may have actually missed the night when we rewatched this.

Jala 1:37:12

Ah, okay.

Tim 1:37:12

Um, I do remember the episode, and but you may have to, you may have to talk about it a little bit more in depth, but I just know that, yes, it's, it's the episode where, yeah, Daedalus, it's, it's not the most flattering depiction of Daedalus.

Jala 1:37:13

Well, um, yeah.

Tim 1:37:25

Um, in some ways and other ways, it's like very strangely flattering. Um, most I remember is that he gets, he gets a wig. And it's like, what why didn't nobody thought it? Wow, I mean, we're bald and we're monsters and horrible.

Cameron 1:37:38

Yeah.

Tim 1:37:39

I never thought to just put hair on my head and be normal all of a sudden. What? What's this technology that has never existed before in in the entire history of humanity?

Jala 1:37:44

Right. right Well, the central premise on this one is that there is a serial killer vampire loose. Someone embraced a Kindred or but embrace a human who is then basically unhinged. This person is mentally unstable and then is turned into a vampire and then realizes that with his vampire powers he has a lot of

Tim 1:38:03

That's right.

Jala 1:38:11

strength and he can do stuff that he wasn't able to before. So the first thing he does is go and kill his dad who abused him when he was little and like leave a whole big scene and then just starts murdering people left and right um just because he's first he's getting vengeance and then he's just drunk on power and is just enjoying drinking blood and killing people. So Cameron, tell ah talk a little bit more about it, because I talked so much about the last episode.

Cameron 1:38:42

Oh, man. Yeah. So this one. This one is a bit of an issue. It's going all over the place because this is technically second technically the third episode.

Jala 1:38:55

Third. Yeah.

Cameron 1:38:56

Yeah. Because this is before Sasha is embraced.

Jala 1:39:00

Mm-hmm.

Cameron 1:39:00

Um, so the, the main plot is about our vampiric serial killer. The subplot is that Julie and cash and Daedalus are all falling for human women at the same time. And none of them are talking to each other about it because obviously.

Jala 1:39:13

Right?

Cameron 1:39:17

So, uh, there is a singer at the, at the Haven, I believe, uh, who Daedalus, uh, gets really, really just straight up obsessed with, uh, you know, it doesn't yeah it doesn't help the Nosferatu image when the primogen is like literally peeking around lamp posts and stuff to look at a woman.

Jala 1:39:30

fangirls out.

Tim 1:39:31

Yeah.

Cameron 1:39:41

um But he very creepily sort of begins this on-off sort of relationship with her by just going into her house at night and talking to her and keeping out of view because obviously he's far too monstrous.

Jala 1:39:58

Doesn't he leave her like notes and little gifts and stuff?

Cameron 1:39:59

three Yeah, yep, yep.

Jala 1:40:01

like she gets like a necklace from him, and she's but she like knows that he's there because she can sense somebody being around. She's like, I know you're there, you know and then that's how they start talking because he wasn't going to talk to her, but then she called out to him, and so he couldn't help but answer.

Cameron 1:40:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, ah see she foolishly initially initiates dialogue with the guy hiding in her drawing room. ah not no Not a, yeah, yeah.

Tim 1:40:26

She thinks he probably has hair. I don't i can't see him, but he probably has hair, so it's probably fine.

Cameron 1:40:31

Yeah. ah So they start talking night after night in her house while he just watches her. um And she wants to see him. She wants to be with him for some reason.

Jala 1:40:42

Well, she's really lonely and she says something to that effect and that, you know, he says he's really lonely.

Cameron 1:40:42

I don't know. Yeah.

Jala 1:40:49

They're both really, really lonely people. And then they both like, when they're having their conversations, they're like, you know, he's like, your music speaks to my soul.

Cameron 1:40:51

Yeah.

Jala 1:40:57

And she's like, you're the only person who understands my music. And so there's this whole, like, you know, fan of the opera kind of thing going on here.

Cameron 1:41:01

Oh, yeah. Yeah, oh, it's very Phantom of the Opera. um Except instead of a mask, he creates a potion to give himself hair.

Jala 1:41:12

Yes. Yeah, it's a temporary potion of that is basically it casts an illusion. And then he looks like Steven Tyler when they put the wig on him.

Cameron 1:41:25

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, you know, he reveals himself to her, they ah embrace not in the vampire term, but in the ah the human romance term. And, you know, get it on a little bit.

Jala 1:41:36

He gets it, he gets it.

Cameron 1:41:38

He gets laid.

Tim 1:41:39

Yay!

Cameron 1:41:39

He gets laid.

Jala 1:41:39

Yeah.

Cameron 1:41:40

And in the end, slightly before the sun rises, the potion is worn off. So he's fleeing and she sees him. and freaks out because he's bold and terrible, ah to the point where she reports him to the police as the Night Stalker, the serial killer that's been going around town is like, yeah, no, I saw the Night Stalker.

Jala 1:41:57

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.

Cameron 1:42:01

He's been Night Stalking me. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Um, and so we get this sort of false lead where the police sketches, like this horrible, like lizard man monster, like blazing yellow eyes.

Jala 1:42:16

Yeah.

Tim 1:42:17

Again, not what Daedalus looks like, necessarily.

Cameron 1:42:19

No, he's just a guy. He's just a guy. Um, and meanwhile, you know, Julian's, uh, sort of dancing around Caitlin and cash and Sasha sort of dancing around each other. Um, Yeah, ah you know, we it is it is what it is. We end up ah defeating our serial killer. Was this the one where he got hit by a train or was that with Zane?

Jala 1:42:40

No, no. This is the one where ah the serial killer was going to kill the girl that Daedalus was interested in when she went to the club.

Cameron 1:42:49

Oh, yes.

Jala 1:42:51

He disguised himself as a police officer and was going to murder her in the club when Julian and Frank both show up and they tag team.

Cameron 1:42:54

Yes. Hmm. Yes, yes.

Jala 1:43:03

And then like, like Frank is there and he's trying to stop this guy. And then Julian shows up and is like, I'll mop the floor with this guy. Let me take care of it. It's a Kindred issue.

Cameron 1:43:14

Yeah.

Jala 1:43:15

Let me do this. And so this was the first episode where Frank is not trusting Julian, but he's like, okay, we're on the same side for this one. Go ahead and do what you need to do. And then Julian takes him out and in handles the rest of it from there.

Cameron 1:43:29

Yeah, like my human law can't do anything to this man.

Jala 1:43:34

Yeah.

Cameron 1:43:33

But you, vampire law.

Jala 1:43:37

Yep. Yep. And it's so funny because like when that that singer lady was talking to a reporter, because yeah was talking to, among other people, Caitlin, of course, because there's only one reporter in the city either, um and she was like, I thought he I was looking at the devil himself.

Cameron 1:43:48

Yes. Oh yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:43:57

The man is just bald.

Cameron 1:43:58

This is real mean.

Jala 1:43:59

This is so, so mean.

Cameron 1:43:59

This is real mean. Daedalus deserves better.

Tim 1:44:02

It's just a word, yes.

Jala 1:44:03

Right. Right. Well, and one of the things that I really like about this episode. So I mean, like this one was also co-written by John Leekley. He didn't do the all of the writing, but he co-wrote it. And like I have to say, like, OK, some of it is pretty misguided. I think they were really trying to do a Phantom of the Opera thing without making it overly obvious that that's what they were doing.

Cameron 1:44:24

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Jala 1:44:26

And I like the idea of the serial killer and stuff like that, but I think that's why they didn't air it. It's not because of Daedalus being creepy, but because of the serial killer part.

Tim 1:44:37

Oh yeah, yeah, that's the part.

Jala 1:44:38

Because this was the mid-90s. I don't think that that would have flown on TV at that time.

Cameron 1:44:43

Oh no.

Tim 1:44:44

Stalking, it's fine. and Entering somebody's house and just, yeah, that being okay, it's fine. But serial killers, no, you can't handle that.

Jala 1:44:52

Well, seriously, I think that that's what it was because like he would write stuff on the walls in blood.

Cameron 1:44:52

Absolutely not.

Tim 1:44:54

Yeah, makes sense.

Jala 1:44:57

So, you know, like there's also the censors.

Tim 1:44:58

yeah True, true.

Cameron 1:44:59

Very graphic and shocking.

Jala 1:45:01

Yeah. The censors of that. ah So yeah, this one was not, uh-huh.

Tim 1:45:03

Makes sense.

Cameron 1:45:05

Well, because, yeah, when we watched it, it was fine. Oh, like, why would why would they not have this? This is actually OK as an episode as well. It wasn't the worst one.

Jala 1:45:13

Right. It definitely wasn't the worst one. But at one thing that I do like though, is that like when Daedalus wakes up in the morning after he got his, like he looks like he turns and looks in her vanity and then she like sees himself in the mirror and he creeps himself out and he's like, Oh my God, you know, he's having a freak out. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh, I look like myself again. I got to go, you know.

Cameron 1:45:38

I mean, I guess does he ever have a mirror in his little underground lair?

Jala 1:45:44

No, no.

Cameron 1:45:44

No, he's not used to seeing himself.

Jala 1:45:47

Yeah, yep. So yeah, ah this one was super ridiculous, though, because she's just like, he was a monster. He was all this stuff. It's like he's just a bald man with a couple of veins.

Tim 1:45:58

Yeah.

Jala 1:45:58

I mean, like he.

Tim 1:45:59

ah do you remember I do remember thinking like, oh, it's going to go the the the nice way where she's going to be like, no, I learned to love you.

Cameron 1:45:59

Yeah. Ah, I wish.

Tim 1:46:05

You really are. I can see your heart. No, no, it just straight goes to, oh, my gosh.

Jala 1:46:10

Well, this is also the episode, we didn't even talk about this, where ah there is the, like, isn't this the one with the little boy that Daedalus ends up protecting and wanting to be with as well?

Tim 1:46:20

Yes, I think so.

Cameron 1:46:22

I thought that was the episode with Zane, wasn't it?

Jala 1:46:22

So like, yeah,

Cameron 1:46:24

Like he meets, uh, Oh, maybe, maybe it might be this one.

Tim 1:46:28

Goodness, this one.

Cameron 1:46:29

Cause there, there's a sub subplot about a vampire doctor who's like harvesting children for blood.

Tim 1:46:35

Oh, gee, oh, yeah. more yeah

Jala 1:46:38

And Caitlin was chasing that at the same time. And so like there were multiple things going on, which is why Daedalus wasn't the one to come for the Night Stalker.

Cameron 1:46:41

Yeah.

Jala 1:46:48

And it was Julian himself. Because Daedalus was over here doing this other stuff with this boy who has cancer that he's trying to save, who can sense vampires and isn't scared of him. So he actually takes him home like a puppy and has him in the basement like just hanging out with him.

Cameron 1:46:59

Yeah.

Jala 1:47:05

And then, you know, like ends up, you know, Julian's like, you've got to take him home. You can't keep him. Yeah, you've got to let him go back. And so.

Cameron 1:47:14

But I've already taught him a trick. Look, he doesn't scream whenever he sees me.

Jala 1:47:18

Right. So anyway, at the end of the episode, he ends up killing the doctor and throwing him into the incinerator um and like Frank ends up finding the skull after all of this is all done.

Cameron 1:47:28

Yep. Well, because that this is where the suspicion of Sunny really starts to come out, because Sunny searches the incinerator first and goes, ah, no, nothing of note in there. And Frank looks inside and pulls out a full skull and goes like, yeah, nothing, nothing to see here.

Jala 1:47:45

Yeah. yeah right But also Daedalus ends up using his power to cure the cancer of this little boy because he wants the little boy to like be healed and be free even though he can't you know be around Daedalus anymore.

Cameron 1:47:55

Yes. Yeah.

Jala 1:48:02

so and so like there's this yeah Then there's this like whole like heartbreaking thing where it's like, oh, you know he he wants to be close to humans too, but like you know even in this case, like he can't.

Cameron 1:48:02

Yeah. Miraculous remission.

Jala 1:48:15

he can't because you know you it that endangers the Masquerade. So he has to wipe the boy's memory and then cure his cancer and leave him out there. you know

Cameron 1:48:25

I love Daedalus. He's probably my favorite character in this.

Jala 1:48:30

Yeah, yeah.

Cameron 1:48:30

He's really good.

Tim 1:48:31

Yeah.

Jala 1:48:32

For sure. And like, you know, I could at the time that I was watching this, if I had seen the Night Stalker episode, I think I still would have been like, you know, I wouldn't have been bothered by his part in this because, you know, as a kid with hormones, you know, like a preteen or early teenager with hormones, feeling all kinds of feels and stuff, I would have been like, I'm also alone. I understand Daedalus, you know.

Cameron 1:48:57

Yeah.

Jala 1:48:58

you know, just the usual unhinged, you know, teenage course, you know?

Cameron 1:49:02

Oh, yeah.

Tim 1:49:03

Of course, passion.

Jala 1:49:06

So, so yeah, that wraps up all the individual episodes of this show. ah Do we have any other things we want to talk about, like instances? I think we kind of talked about all the really memorable scenes, but

Cameron 1:49:17

Yeah, we talk about all the big things. It does a lot of stuff I like that you don't always see in vampire media. Like, um especially with Julian, him having a surviving line of descendants is really, really actually interesting.

Tim 1:49:29

True.

Jala 1:49:30

Right.

Cameron 1:49:33

Like the idea that, yeah, no, you had a full life and you had children before you were turned.

Jala 1:49:36

Mm hmm.

Cameron 1:49:38

And then you had to watch them, you know, grow and have their own families and you helped them grow the business as a mysterious benefactor.

Jala 1:49:47

Yeah.

Cameron 1:49:47

And then you watch and you watch your last son die of old age at like 95 or whatever. And you go, and I'm still a beautiful 35 year old man in a suit.

Jala 1:49:57

Right. Right.

Cameron 1:49:58

I'm going to adopt my great, great granddaughter or whatever this, whatever Sasha is.

Jala 1:50:02

Yeah. Yep.

Cameron 1:50:04

Yeah, it was it led to some really interesting dynamics and ah touched on a lot of really interesting things.

Jala 1:50:05

Yep.

Cameron 1:50:10

um We also got the we got a Julian's occasional pastime where they show it once and then it's also in the opening sequence of every episode.

Tim 1:50:11

It's okay.

Cameron 1:50:22

He just sort of phases through the ground to lie in his wife's coffin every so often.

Tim 1:50:25

Oh, yes.

Jala 1:50:27

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Cameron 1:50:28

just go visit his wife and I'm like, that is that is certainly a vampire thing to do.

Tim 1:50:34

Yes, very much.

Jala 1:50:34

Right. Well, and I think he originally, but like voluntarily decided to become a member of the Kindred because his wife had died or something like that. Like his wife had died before he became a Kindred is my impression of it.

Cameron 1:50:44

Yeah. Yes, yeah.

Jala 1:50:49

So, you know, like, yes, he still had children, but like, you know, his wife had already passed. So.

Cameron 1:50:55

Yeah, he didn't have as strong an attachment. Uh, to, you know, surely like the kids will grow old and die, but you'll get to watch over the family for generations, et cetera. That kind of thing, which is actually quite interesting. Um, yeah. Uh, otherwise yeah. Daedalus is great. He should have more self-esteem.

Jala 1:51:14

Right.

Cameron 1:51:15

So you don't look that bad.

Jala 1:51:15

And then that. Yeah. And then those other people need to stop screaming because he's bald.

Cameron 1:51:21

Yeah. Calm down.

Tim 1:51:23

you don't have to come up with potions there's wigs are a thing you've been around for a very long time and you also you don't need it yeah good point

Jala 1:51:24

Right.

Cameron 1:51:23

People are bald. Wigs are a thing, but also like just bold people are a thing.

Jala 1:51:31

Yeah.

Cameron 1:51:32

Yeah. I don't scream every time I see a photo of Dave.

Jala 1:51:35

I know.

Cameron 1:51:35

He's fine.

Jala 1:51:36

I went this whole episode without comparing it to my husband.

Cameron 1:51:36

He's very handsome. yeah That's my job.

Jala 1:51:42

and So, yep, yep. So let's wrap this up with some discussion questions here. So what, in your opinion, could have been added to the show to make it better? Tim, I'll throw to you first.

Tim 1:51:59

and Yeah, so that's it's a good question. So I mean, for sure, the as we can kind of you know we've said before on this episode, that the writer is changing and the kind of drive to try and chase the ratings and go in different directions kind of hurt the feeling of the show, the vibe of the show, not having a kind of central thread that you can tell that the story kind of just kind of starts to go in different directions as the show goes on. um and ah And obviously,

Frank was originally supposed to be our audience surrogate POV character, um but didn't quite work out, you know, so and Julian was made the kind of primary protagonist of the show. ah But I feel like it would have been maybe good for the show if they could kind of retweet it and had Sasha. I feel like Sasha kind of being treated more as the audience surrogate. character could have been a good way to kind of show us and give us some more of that less awkward exposition in some of the world building and kind of revealing, you know, these are the clans.

These are what they do. These are why the Gangrel and the Brujah hate each other. This is what I did. You know, so so that could have been a fun way to kind of show that. ah Give it give us a ah view of the world from that direction. um And again, just kind of having you can't really change it. but having some some some of the writing stay and some of the tone staying a little more consistent could have could have really helped.

And again, that's pretty much mostly my biggest takeaway from this.

Cameron 1:53:30

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:53:31

cool how about you Cameron.

Cameron 1:53:33

um I'm going to echo the sentiment of one of the other Discord members we watch with. I agree with her entirely. We should have werewolves in this show.

Jala 1:53:43

yeah.

Cameron 1:53:44

This show should be about werewolves. But no, I think it is actually really quite a good show. um I think it needs, yeah, cohesion, most of all, would be the most helpful thing for it to have. um A lot of my a lot of my ah things I would like to dress are just like color grading. I wanted to look wanted to look dark when it's nighttime.

Tim 1:54:04

Yeah, true.

Cameron 1:54:09

It really helps the immersion. um But no, ah there are they could definitely dive a lot more. I love the idea, Tim, of Sasha as that sort of more point of view, quote unquote, every man-style character, because Frank is still throughout the entire show an outsider.

Jala 1:54:27

You're right. ah huh

Cameron 1:54:28

to the entirety of the Kindred's world. Sasha, as our point of view, literally being forcibly flung into the Masquerade would make for a really great viewpoint for a lot of that. And instead she gets used mostly for dramatic tension, ah which doesn't serve her well, because, she you know, she has a very explosive introduction and then it's all romance and angst subplots for her, which makes me a bit sad that they could have done a lot more with her, I think.

Jala 1:54:57

Right. Well, especially since she is Julian's granddaughter and she is so fiery. She is more fiery than any other vampire in the show.

Tim 1:55:06

Yeah, before she was a vampire, yeah.

Cameron 1:55:06

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:55:08

Um, you know, she could really command the entire dang thing, you know, and it could, yeah.

Cameron 1:55:13

Hmm, absolutely. Should be a great in that.

Jala 1:55:16

And it could be really a whole her and Cash versus the world kind of thing for real.

Cameron 1:55:21

ah Yeah, that'd be good. I would like that.

Jala 1:55:24

And then cash would have slightly more agency maybe.

Tim 1:55:26

Yeah, maybe.

Jala 1:55:27

So yeah, um as for me, again, the writers, the consistency, that kind of thing for sure. And um yeah, definitely one of the things I had thought was that if they had introduced some of the wider white wolf stuff like mage and wraith and yeah hunter, you know, and and werewolf and all of that, and they had some of these other things also in the world as well then wouldn't it be interesting to see the Kindred clans as fractious as they are having to band together to fight something else that is you know opposed to them you know like that would be kind of interesting I also feel yeah go ahead

Cameron 1:56:05

Yeah. Yeah. Ah, like, yeah. Hmm. That like a werewolf shows up to town and it is the entire problem for like two episodes because werewolves and white wolf can be can be a lot.

Jala 1:56:22

Yeah. Well, and um I was also thinking that I would really like to see more of Alexandra and, you know, some and and even Archon.

Cameron 1:56:31

oh Yeah.

Jala 1:56:33

I want to see some of Archon. I want to see some flashback episodes showing Archon when he was ruling the city and what was going on.

Tim 1:56:37

Ruthless.

Jala 1:56:40

And what was that feud about in the first place? You know, ah when did Eddie first come to town?

Tim 1:56:43

Yeah.

Cameron 1:56:42

Yeah, that'll be good.

Jala 1:56:46

Because I really like Eddie as a character. Sorry, Cameron.

Cameron 1:56:49

Yeah, I know.

Jala 1:56:49

Cameron's OK. But

Cameron 1:56:51

Yeah, I don't like Cameron, so I like Eddie as well.

Jala 1:56:52

I like Eddie a little more. Yeah.

Cameron 1:56:55

I fully agree.

Jala 1:56:57

Right, right. And so, I mean, like, that would also be really fun as well to see, like, let's see some flashbacks of, like, Archon when Archon was ruling and ah Alexandra when she first was turned into a vampire when Julian and she were trying to be a couple or whatever. And some of these other elements, I think, would be also interesting if you're going to go from the ah less

Cameron 1:57:14

Yeah.

Jala 1:57:22

ah vampire and technical, you know let's get into White Wolf territory and more into the angsty drama type stuff.

Cameron 1:57:30

Yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:57:30

you know you could but yeah Depending upon which one you go with, Alexandra and Julian would be all angsty drama, um you know but Archon would be deep into the clans and the what they're doing and this, that, and the other.

Tim 1:57:43

Have like a sepia tone you know flashback to you know the roaring 20s or something when Archon was in power and Yeah

Cameron 1:57:49

Yeah. Archon in the old country.

Jala 1:57:52

Right, right. Well, and too, it would be really a lot of fun because like, you would get a little bit more of the kind of rule set because Archon doesn't have like a love interest or anything like that.

Tim 1:58:08

True.

Jala 1:58:09

He's, he's the guy in the Mr. Rogers sweater, or he's the apparently cold and heartless killer who is now Mr. Rogers, you know? So, uh, that would be kind of interesting to see overall, I think.

Cameron 1:58:21

Yeah, absolutely.

Tim 1:58:22

That would be good.

Jala 1:58:23

So yeah, and like and even something that was more about Lily, but not Lily as attached and defined by Julian, but Lily among her own clan, you know, like let's see her not just trying to get, you know, be be like failing the Bechdel test constantly.

Cameron 1:58:33

Yeah, that would be nice. Yeah, yeah.

Jala 1:58:42

You know, like let her have her own autonomy and own life that's not attached to Julian for a little bit. So I feel like um they really did shortchange the female characters in this.

Tim 1:58:54

Yeah, well.

Cameron 1:58:54

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, as an unfortunate byproduct of the era, I think.

Tim 1:58:59

For sure.

Jala 1:59:00

Yep. Yep. Yep. So ah would you want a modern reboot of this? And if so, describe what your ideal version would be like.

Cameron 1:59:11

Oh, I mean, yes. Yeah, I think I think it would be nice. That's the immediate responses.

Jala 1:59:17

Yeah.

Cameron 1:59:17

Yeah, modern reboot would be pretty good. um I would like it to be relatively similar, like who close to the overall storylines, but like, obviously, again, fix things up, stick things together a little more, maybe give a little more autonomy and focus on our female leads. um But it would be really, really interesting to um get it more focused in on a single character, perhaps, like, like, like, I think literally have the Sasha show

Jala 1:59:46

Yeah.

Cameron 1:59:51

where it's focused in on Sasha and then, you know, my life changed the day I went to my grandpa's funeral and freaked out a bit. And my weird uncle who I met once adopts me and then, oh, vampires.

Jala 2:00:01

Yeah.

Cameron 2:00:04

Oh, wow. What's going on with this? Like really hue in on that storyline, but still have the overarching storylines happening around that and getting like those glimpses behind the Masquerade until it's shattered at the point where she's embraced.

Jala 2:00:19

Right.

Cameron 2:00:19

I think would be would be a really interesting way to do that.

Jala 2:00:23

right And I would say, yeah, I definitely want to have a modern reboot. My request would be that Julian be played by Mark Frankel's son.

Cameron 2:00:32

Oh, yes, that's a good call.

Tim 2:00:33

Oh, yes. Who I haven't watched the show, but he's ah I know he's on the um does it dance of dragons show. It plays one of the main one of the one of the primary I think I looked it up before record is like, Oh, what has he been in?

Cameron 2:00:42

Hmm.

Tim 2:00:47

Oh, wow. He's one of the one of the primary characters in that show.

Cameron 2:00:49

Game of Thrones, guys.

Tim 2:00:51

So he obviously has chops.

Cameron 2:00:51

Yeah.

Tim 2:00:53

um But yeah, I echo kind of just saying it kind of having the show really follow a Sasha or Sasha type character um through the and letting us kind of really be through that character's eyes and being introduced to uh this world of the world of darkness one might say um that and kind of yeah one could say a world of darkness um and i think having it take place in modern times would be interesting but also giving us some opportunity to kind of maybe have some interesting throwbacks the flashback type sort of stuff where we could we could have flashbacks to um to certain scenes from the past or have some characters that are you know purposefully anachronistic kind of sort of

Cameron 2:01:10

Hmm. Yeah. One could say. Hmm. Yeah.

Tim 2:01:39

Obviously, there are vampires who were embraced in the 80s or 90s, and they're like, I'm still acting and dressing that way. Could have been some fun fan service for fans of the of the tabletop game to kind of, hey, it looks like a guy that from back then, one of the characters from the books.

Cameron 2:01:54

Yeah, absolutely.

Tim 2:01:56

And then, like you we mentioned, ah bringing in, giving opportunity to bring in some of the other supernatural beings of all the darkness, werewolves, mages,

Cameron 2:01:56

Yeah, yeah.

Tim 2:02:05

um Kind of hinting at it, I know not overloading too fast, but kind of hinting that there's a larger creepier world out there that that nobody quite understands well enough. um It would have been fun, yeah.

Cameron 2:02:16

Yeah. Oh, and of course, ah full prosthetics for Nosferatu clan members, please.

Tim 2:02:23

Yes. For sure.

Cameron 2:02:24

Make them look as monstrous as the narrative says they are.

Jala 2:02:27

Right.

Tim 2:02:30

Kind of getting into some of the lore but the With the Nosferatu, one of the ways they kind of differentiate them in some of the newer editions is it's less that they're just physically disgusting. They just have, no matter what, even if they are like visually horrible, they just have a ah way of making everybody around them uncomfortable. And I think that would have been a fun way to kind of portray like when we kind of have some differences in how that i was shown. It could have been some fun, fun stuff to a way to do that.

Cameron 2:02:56

Yeah, that would be good.

Jala 2:02:59

Right, right. So what would a movie version of this show look like?

Cameron 2:03:06

Oh, man. I mean, can we do The Godfather but with Julian Luna?

Jala 2:03:12

that Yeah, I guess that would have to be like the route we go with it because they namedrop Godfather so much, huh? Or Eddie Fiore, put Eddie Fiore in the center of it in his fight against Julian.

Cameron 2:03:20

Oh, man.

Tim 2:03:21

It comes back.

Cameron 2:03:22

Yeah. That would be pretty good.

Tim 2:03:25

or a One way to be would be the, in the again, calling back to the tabletop, the Sabbat, the kind of the big, big bads of the Masquerade who are the, you know, the Basically just anarchy.

Jala 2:03:31

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Tim 2:03:38

ah They don't care about the Masquerade. They just go into towns and just wreak havoc. That could have been a could be a fun subplot to show, oh, now all day all of our problems are kind of you know tiny compared to real issue now. We have to all come together and take on this bigger threat.

Jala 2:03:55

Right, right. That's kind of the same thing that I was um you know trying to say when I was like, yeah, and then you have werewolves and these other things that are like you know automatic points of contention for the Kindred that the Kindred then have to fight. Yeah, it was so weird that during the regular show, they had one osmite

Tim 2:04:13

Yeah.

Cameron 2:04:13

Yes.

Jala 2:04:13

And the Assamite was never explained.

Cameron 2:04:14

The asthma.

Jala 2:04:15

You were just told that they are the Assamite.

Tim 2:04:16

Nope.

Cameron 2:04:16

No.

Jala 2:04:18

And then like you don't get anything out, no exposition about anything other than and they're shapeshifters and you call them in and they kill people.

Tim 2:04:19

Nope.

Jala 2:04:26

And that's all you know.

Tim 2:04:26

That's all you need to know.

Cameron 2:04:26

Yeah. That's all you need to know.

Jala 2:04:27

so Right. Right. So, so, yeah, I think that a movie version of this, it would have to be some kind of a drama. It would have to be like a supernatural so has to be a drama kind of thing, though. There's got to be, you know, like, yeah, it could have some action in their drama action kind of thing, but it it would be a slower paced, probably like two and a half or three hours long, I imagine. Just the way the movies are going these days, I feel like it would be a long movie just because of the drama part slowing down any action that happens.

And then the fans would get mad because there wasn't enough action and it was too slow and they could cut off this much time.

Tim 2:05:03

Yes, of course.

Jala 2:05:08

And that that would be how it would go.

Tim 2:05:08

hey One option, it could be it could be just go the total route of Caitlin just doing interview with a Julian as opposed to interview the vampire cheese.

Jala 2:05:16

Interview with a Vampire.

Cameron 2:05:16

Yeah, yeah. and Yeah, but, but, you know, yeah, I get to get a, get a Julian Luna in less pale, more beautiful.

Jala 2:05:20

That's been done before.

Tim 2:05:27

This is my paper. I can do what I want now. Yes.

Jala 2:05:31

Oh, you just sent me. So, OK, last question, though, what would a video game version of the show be like?

Cameron 2:05:38

Yeah.

Jala 2:05:40

And I'm going to answer this first because I'm going to tell you my my predisposition is to say that this would be a visual novel because you would have the sexy bits you could get in there and then you'd have the drama and that the branching paths and shit.

Tim 2:05:54

That would be good.

Jala 2:05:54

that would That's exactly what this would be.

Cameron 2:05:55

Yeah.

Tim 2:05:55

That would work.

Cameron 2:05:56

It took the words right out of my mouth. um Yeah.

Jala 2:05:58

Oh, right. Yeah. I tried to think about this and yeah, I tried to think about this in terms of like, you know, uh, vampire bloodlines or something like that.

Cameron 2:06:00

Visual novel.

Jala 2:06:06

And I'm like, Oh, I don't know. I don't think that that has the heart of this show in it. You know, like, Oh yeah.

Cameron 2:06:11

No, no.

Tim 2:06:12

I could see it working as a management sim where you play as Julian.

Jala 2:06:17

Yeah. If you're Julian.

Tim 2:06:18

You're just like, you're just trying to like barely keep everything from not, the Masquerade from not chattering and cash from not screwing things up or Frank from not getting killed accidentally.

Jala 2:06:18

Yeah.

Cameron 2:06:23

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that'd be really, yeah. That'd be really cool. Like do it almost like, um, I'm going way out in the reeds here. Do it almost like Frostpunk where you're sending out things, but instead of your, instead of doing buildings, you are building like relationships and covenants and things.

Tim 2:06:39

There you go. yes

Cameron 2:06:46

And they're represented physically as like this web grid around your generator, which is obviously Julian. like the core the heart of the city and you know you get events like Eddie Fiori is going to attempt to overthrow you in a week what do you do to build up your defenses that kind of stuff yeah

Tim 2:06:53

Yes. There we go, yes.

Jala 2:07:02

right It's kind of like a king of king a King of Dragon Pass or We the Revolution or some other kind of thing like that would be would be kind of fun. You could also end up doing this as an RTS too where you could pick you know ah you know pick what clan you want to be.

Tim 2:07:15

True.

Cameron 2:07:20

Oh man, yeah.

Tim 2:07:21

Send out your little group of Nosferatu to squash the Berghaw from you.

Cameron 2:07:26

Yeah. We require more A positive blood. We require more A positive blood. No Vespene gas here.

Jala 2:07:41

Right, right.

Cameron 2:07:41

Oh, that would be fun.

Jala 2:07:42

So that would be.

Cameron 2:07:42

Yeah, and like it's ripe. It's ripe for adaptation, whether it's a modern reboot or like you said, a more like a drama centered film or I think a visual novel of this this one season would actually be really good.

Tim 2:07:46

Yes.

Jala 2:07:56

Yeah, it would be a lot of fun because you could take it in so many different directions and you could see different parts where Frank is the really kind of the main character and has like a bunch of stuff going on.

Tim 2:07:56

Yeah?

Cameron 2:07:56

I would play that.

Jala 2:08:08

And depending on your choices, maybe this or that happens and maybe Eddie dies and maybe he doesn't.

Tim 2:08:11

So many alternate endings that are possible, yeah.

Cameron 2:08:14

Yeah. I think it'd be cool.

Jala 2:08:16

Yeah, be pretty neat.

Cameron 2:08:16

Good choice.

Jala 2:08:19

So yeah, that's all I got to say about this show. It is fun. It is flawed, but it is fun. And for that reason, it keeps on showing up every several years.

Cameron 2:08:27

Yes. Yes.

Jala 2:08:31

I'm like, up I got ah I'm due for a watch, and we've got to watch this again. So yeah, I want to thank you both for being on with me to talk about this. Obviously, Tim, you are not to be found on the internet, so that being the case, you know I will toss to you, Cameron, where in the end in the internet can you be found?

Cameron 2:08:50

Yeah. You can primarily find me on Monster Dear Monster, everyone's favourite show that mostly it mostly just talks about various horror media, whether that be book, film or occasionally TV or games we'll throw in as well. We're also slowly, slowly slogging our way through the Elden Ring DLC.

Jala 2:09:14

Yeah.

Cameron 2:09:15

We're getting there. it's big. It's difficult. It's been a very big and difficult last ah last six months for everyone.

Jala 2:09:23

Yes.

Cameron 2:09:23

yeah on the show as well. So it's been a little active, but hoping to spring in in the new year. um I am. on blue sky. Let me just double check what my handle on there is. What am I on BlueSky?

Jala 2:09:38

I think you're swarbie, aren't you?

Cameron 2:09:39

yes I don't use it enough to remember off the top of my head. I am, yeah, swarbie.bluesky.social.

Jala 2:09:44

Yeah, swarbie.bluesky. Mm-hmm.

Cameron 2:09:46

Yeah, yeah, nice and easy. um Yeah. if you If you want to see me very occasionally repost things on there or ah shoot me a message or whatever, you may do so, of course.

Jala 2:10:00

And of course, you can find me anywhere that I might be found @jalachan, including jalachan.place where you found this episode and all of the others. So until next time, remember to smile and don't endanger the Masquerade.

Cameron 2:10:17

Don't do it, Julian. You'll endanger the Masquerade. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net!

[Outro Music]